Serious Discussion Switzerland is considering amending its surveillance law

[nurmagoz]

Switzerland is considering amending its surveillance law to expand into VPNs, messaging apps, and social networks.

Secure encryption and online anonymity are now at risk in Switzerland – here's what you need to know

NymVPN, Proton, and Threema are ready to fight back

www.techradar.com

Encryption and anonymity are not just for activists or journalists, they are fundamental rights that protect everyone from corporate overreach.

They say it’s about “security,” but let’s be real—weakening encryption doesn’t just catch bad guys; it makes everyone more vulnerable.


Is there anything we can do to push back against these intrusive measures?

 

[Bot]

Absolutely, raising awareness about the issue is the first step. Engage in discussions, sign petitions, and contact your local representatives to express your concerns. Remember, every voice counts when it comes to protecting our privacy rights.

 

[bazang]

Is there anything we can do to push back against these intrusive measures?

The minute that Switzerland has a few terrorist attacks and bombings, it will change its privacy and encryption laws.

Those attacks are coming to Switzerland. It is not if it will happen. It is when it will happen.

There is a public interest in law enforcement having the capabilities to capture criminals. That means that privacy and encryption cannot be absolute. If you do the research, Swiss law already compels corporations and individuals to comply with lawful orders to break encryption. Those laws also permit Swiss Security Services to hack anyone to death - just like every other nation that exercises security common sense.

 

[Victor M]

Those attacks are coming to Switzerland. It is not if it will happen. It is when it will happen.

However, Switzerland is known in the past to be a neutral country I think. So I think terrorist will target others first.

 

[nurmagoz]

However, Switzerland is known in the past to be a neutral country I think. So I think terrorist will target others first.

Switzerland is known for its strong privacy laws. I wonder why it is taking a troubling turn.

 

[TairikuOkami]

I would not open the Chapmane just yet, considering the past, they share encrypted data willy-nilly, for mere asking and supposedly regret it later.

https://alternativeto.net/news/2021/9/protonmail-forced-to-comply-with-swiss-law-and-provide-data-in-arrest-of-climate-activist/

 

[bazang]

I would not open the Chapmane just yet, considering the past, they share encrypted data willy-nilly, for mere asking and supposedly regret it later.

https://alternativeto.net/news/2021/9/protonmail-forced-to-comply-with-swiss-law-and-provide-data-in-arrest-of-climate-activist/

No company is going to protect users if that company faces a lawful request or prosecution.

Apple says it will not break users' encryption, but when presented with a National Security letter by the U.S. Department of Justice, Apple cooperates.

I cannot believe that there is a single person on the face of the Earth that expects any company to protect them. It is absurd to think that any company will put the user before itself.

 

[simmerskool]

However, Switzerland is known in the past to be a neutral country I think. So I think terrorist will target others first.

sidenote fwiw: I'm in the US. I saw a documentary showing that most if not all buidings, total population of Switzerland has good access to bomb shelters. That is not the case in US.

 

[Digmor Crusher]

sidenote fwiw: I'm in the US. I saw a documentary showing that most if not all buidings, total population of Switzerland has good access to bomb shelters. That is not the case in US.

He he, if the residents of the US ever have to run to bomb shelters then its over, may as well put your head between your knees and............

 

[Marko :)]

The minute that Switzerland has a few terrorist attacks and bombings, it will change its privacy and encryption laws.

Those attacks are coming to Switzerland. It is not if it will happen. It is when it will happen.

There is a public interest in law enforcement having the capabilities to capture criminals. That means that privacy and encryption cannot be absolute. If you do the research, Swiss law already compels corporations and individuals to comply with lawful orders to break encryption. Those laws also permit Swiss Security Services to hack anyone to death - just like every other nation that exercises security common sense.

Switzerland did have terrorist attacks, but there's definitely something else behind this, and it's not terrorism. More likely piracy. Switzerland is a literal piracy-heaven and that bothers some companies.

I would not open the Chapmane just yet, considering the past, they share encrypted data willy-nilly, for mere asking and supposedly regret it later.

https://alternativeto.net/news/2021/9/protonmail-forced-to-comply-with-swiss-law-and-provide-data-in-arrest-of-climate-activist/

Proton had a fair share of controversies before. This is just one of them. Not to mention their free products are literal bait.

No company is going to protect users if that company faces a lawful request or prosecution.

Apple says it will not break users' encryption, but when presented with a National Security letter by the U.S. Department of Justice, Apple cooperates.

I cannot believe that there is a single person on the face of the Earth that expects any company to protect them. It is absurd to think that any company will put the user before itself.

That really depends which country we're talking about. Companies in the US and Europe will sometimes fight for their customers, but in authoritarian regimes and dictatorships this simply isn't possible as they could easily end up in huge trouble.

For example:
– In the US, Apple refused to unlock iPhones on FBI request multiple times
– In the US and Europe, Cloudflare is regularly in courts over piracy and they actively fight lawsuits against them and their users
– Meta refused to cooperate with Brazilian authorities and got WhatsApp blocked in Brazil for some time
— Google refused to cooperate with authorities in China and ended up leaving the Chinese market
— VK refused to hand over user data of organizers and those that went to Euromaidan protests in Ukraine in 2014 to FSB; government forced owner to seek exile and took over control over company
— Google refused to filter search results, provide Russian authorities with user data and close accounts in Russia; they got their bank accounts frozen and were ordered to pay more money than entire world has.

sidenote fwiw: I'm in the US. I saw a documentary showing that most if not all buidings, total population of Switzerland has good access to bomb shelters. That is not the case in US.

This is true. By Swiss law, entire population of Switzerland needs to have access to shelter. Tom Scott mentioned in one of his videos about Switzerland.

 

[Digmor Crusher]

Companies always do whats best for their bottom line and stockholders...always.

Theres a department store here in Canada over 300 years old that filed for bankruptcy recently, executives will get up to $ 3 million in severance pay, employees get nothing. Big business has their boots on the conumers throat, most don't know, don't care or as happy as pigs in .... supporting them.

 

[Marko :)]

Companies always do whats best for their bottom line and stockholders...always.

Theres a department store here in Canada over 300 years old that filed for bankruptcy recently, executives will get up to $ 3 million in severance pay, employees get nothing. Big business has their boots on the conumers throat, most don't know, don't care or as happy as pigs in .... supporting them.

Really? That's sad.

In Croatia when company files for bankruptcy, employees salaries are top priority and are the first ones to get paid. All employees are entitled to salary for three months in amount equivalent to minimum wage at the moment of bankruptcy. Also, sick leave fees, unused annual leave, severance pay, work injury are also paid if I remember correctly. The money I'm talking about is also protected by law and company can't use it for other debts it has.

 

[Zero Knowledge]

Sadly not a huge surprise that .CH is changing laws. The amount of piracy and shady shenanigans is massive on .CH servers. But hey that $5 a month you pay for a Vpn or Proton services is really not going to save you. It never did actually, it was just a illusion that privacy laws and citizen protections were more powerful and enforceable than governments policies. The moment you have every privacy company and service relocate to a jurisdiction like they did to Switzerland it's eventually going to end very badly, it may take the government a few years to catch up but they do catch up eventually.

At least with Signal and Whats App you have constitutional protections for free speech and freedom of association in the USA.

Where to next? Africa maybe, or even Latin America?

 

[bazang]

That really depends which country we're talking about. Companies in the US and Europe will sometimes fight for their customers, but in authoritarian regimes and dictatorships this simply isn't possible as they could easily end up in huge trouble.

For example:
– In the US, Apple refused to unlock iPhones on FBI request multiple times
– In the US and Europe, Cloudflare is regularly in courts over piracy and they actively fight lawsuits against them and their users
– Meta refused to cooperate with Brazilian authorities and got WhatsApp blocked in Brazil for some time
— Google refused to cooperate with authorities in China and ended up leaving the Chinese market
— VK refused to hand over user data of organizers and those that went to Euromaidan protests in Ukraine in 2014 to FSB; government forced owner to seek exile and took over control over company
— Google refused to filter search results, provide Russian authorities with user data and close accounts in Russia; they got their bank accounts frozen and were ordered to pay more money than entire world has.

It does not depend upon the country. It depends upon the laws.

• Apple has complied with every single U.S. National Security letter.
• Cloudflare has complied with every single U.S. National Security letter.

There is a huge difference between law enforcement requests and national security service requests.

No U.S. company has ever survived a federal indictment arising from obstruction of justice (non-cooperation). In the case of Apple, Cloudflare, and any other U.S. company, not one of them will refuse to cooperate with a National Security letter. When the U.S. National Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court issues court orders, every person, corporation, business, or even U.S. Government organization or agency must comply or else face contempt of court and/or prosecution.

Under U.S. law, law enforcement and prosecutors have what is called "prosecutorial discretion." That means they can prosecute a company like Apple if they wish or they do not.

You make a lot of comments about the U.S. but do not know how the laws or legal system there work. So your comments are dead wrong because they only contain the factual elements that support your narrative.

There is no doubt that had Google stayed in China, the CCP would have cracked-down hard on Google. Google attorneys advised getting out because China-based Google personnel were going to go to prison and the CCP was going to freeze and seize all Google assets that it could. The same with the Russia situation.

Companies either have to shut down or leave certain countries due to the laws because they have no option but to cooperate. If anybody thinks that is a good solution, it just confirms what I am saying - no company will imperil itself to protect any user data. If it comes down to it, the company will just fold and leave the nation. That really is not protecting anybody. The company is not taking a stance to protect users. It is fleeing to protect itself from prosecution, seizing of its assets, and imprisonment of its foreign personnel.

 

[Digmor Crusher]

Sadly not a huge surprise that .CH is changing laws. The amount of piracy and shady shenanigans is massive on .CH servers. But hey that $5 a month you pay for a Vpn or Proton services is really not going to save you. It never did actually, it was just a illusion that privacy laws and citizen protections were more powerful and enforceable than governments policies. The moment you have every privacy company and service relocate to a jurisdiction like they did to Switzerland it's eventually going to end very badly, it may take the government a few years to catch up but they do catch up eventually.

At least with Signal and Whats App you have constitutional protections for free speech and freedom of association in the USA.

Where to next? Africa maybe, or even Latin America?

I use Proton VPN, email and cloud storage, I don't use them for privacy, I use them because they provide a service that I need and they work well. There is no privacy on the internet.

 

[Zero Knowledge]

I use Proton VPN, email and cloud storage, I don't use them for privacy, I use them because they provide a service that I need and they work well. There is no privacy on the internet.

Then your fine. But many use them for privacy and expect off shore privacy. It's a falsehood, Proton has and will give up information upon a valid court order.

 

[simmerskool]

At least with Signal and Whats App you have constitutional protections for free speech and freedom of association in the USA.

Question ref recent US Defense people on signal chat where someone joined a journalist into the chat re attack on Yeman (iirc). Various people online saying signal not secure, that Russia or China could "easily" read that chat. Unclear to me how that could be the situation, but I assume I'm missing something or various news people and bloggers don't what they're talking about: one or the other?? Can someone elaborate about this signal chat security issue...

 

[Zero Knowledge]

Signal is secure as far as we know. Signal is the most secure E2EE chat app we have (you can argue Whats App) Is it bulletproof from exploits/bugs? No. But what is?

The US defense Signal chat was user error, he accidentally added someone to a group chat. Now you can argue Signal should have measures in place to stop unauthorized people joining chats but that only shifts the problem onto the user and admin of the group chat to verify invites and using one time codes or verified links/invites has its own problems (being stolen or compromised and reused).

But why would you try and break the encryption of Signal? They try and compromise the end device mobile or PC through phishing or social engineering. If they can't do that they would work on iOS or Android bugs/exploits and if they really wanted you they would try firmware bugs. Last resort/option is physical compromise of device, but by that time your goose is already cooked!

 

[simmerskool]

Signal is secure as far as we know. Signal is the most secure E2EE chat app we have (you can argue Whats App) Is it bulletproof from exploits/bugs? No. But what is?

The US defense Signal chat was user error, he accidentally added someone to a group chat. Now you can argue Signal should have measures in place to stop unauthorized people joining chats but that only shifts the problem onto the user and admin of the group chat to verify invites and using one time codes or verified links/invites has its own problems (being stolen or compromised and reused).

But why would you try and break the encryption of Signal? They try and compromise the end device mobile or PC through phishing or social engineering. If they can't do that they would work on iOS or Android bugs/exploits and if they really wanted you they would try firmware bugs. Last resort/option is physical compromise of device, but by that time your goose is already cooked!

I asked chatgpt about the signal -- Russia / China comments that I heard, it replied that signal is safe, but...

Could Russia or China Read Signal Messages?​

Only if they compromise your phone. Let’s say:

• Your phone is infected with spyware or malware.
• An attacker has root-level access and can read your screen or keystrokes.

In that case, any secure app (Signal, WhatsApp, ProtonMail) can be compromised—not because they’re insecure, but because your device is no longer trusted.

If your phone is compromised, it's like someone standing behind you watching you read encrypted letters aloud.

 

[Zero Knowledge]

You would have to be very high value target for someone to use a RCE exploit or exploit chain on Signal or What's App. Once it's deployed someone will notice and the exploit will get burnt. More likely is physical compromise traveling through a another country or at work/home, physical compromise has been an issue for 25 years, do you remember the EvilMaid attacks?

And If you ever have a run in or get arrested your phone will be confiscated and kept in a dark room for ever, once this happens your in trouble. They can and will at anytime in the future try and compromise your phone with new vulnerabilities that are discovered or if the company is targeted by LEA. Remember Phantom Secure PGP secure phones back in the day? They arrested the CEO and shut down the company, they got the private keys and can now probably unlock those crime phones and read the PGP messages.

So set your Signal PIN and registration lock, it's the best you can do and enable remote wipe and hope you can wipe in time.