The truth about Windows Defender on Windows 10 (Home & Pro).

[Local Host]

Just who is the "average" user? This is the problem. I have a casual friend who has McAphee through Staples (she must have paid the really over-inflated price!). She bit on the MS Tech Support scam - hook, line and sinker. Doesn't have a clue! So, did a paid full security suite save her? NO. Staples service saved her - at a premium price! I have a brother in law who is no computer geek, but is smart (He successfully owned and operated a 1 man machine shop for years.) He slapped Avast Free and MBAM Free on his machine and he and his wife have never had a problem. So, who is the average user?

I know a lot people who use the Avast/MBAM combo, but some of them have been advised to use this combo. I also know people who use Sophos Free (not highly regarded by some here on MT!) and no infections. So, most smart people who are not geeks may prefer 3rd party AVs but this does not preclude smart non-geek users from using WD and staying completely secure. No matter what the facts are about WD and MS, most infections are user-dependent. We even might say many smart non-geeks see and rely a lot of reviews for Avast. So we are back to the question: Is the "average user" the smart, non-geek person or the completely clue-less, ignorant person?

My point is that the smart non-geek may simply not be aware that WD is available and/or improved over the years because they've been deluged with Avast/PC Mag marketing and, more importantly, that there is no "average user". For the truly ignorant there may be no solution at all.

The average user is the one who doesn't even know what AV is installed on his machine, on top of being vulnerable to malvertising and other types of web threats.

Is pretty much most of the people I been helping for years with their PC maintenance, outside work. I would never in my right mind leave them with WD (even with strict configuration, would only get in the way of their work).

While something like Kaspersky Free will keep them protected without affecting their usability.

So no, Windows Defender is far from suitable to an average user.

 

[Andy Ful]

...
So no, Windows Defender is far from suitable to an average user.

To be sure, you noticed that no one said that WD is suitable to all average users, but only to some fraction of average users (see Can WD be recommended to average users? in the thread-opening post)?

 

[tsunami]

sadly, some/most "average users" don't want to be educated on these things. I think any AV solution + safe habits + awareness on what's out there is key.

 

[509322]

sadly, some/most "average users" don't want to be educated on these things. I think any AV solution + safe habits + awareness on what's out there is key.

Uneducated users is the very issue that is at the heart of the non-suitability of most security software to most people.

There is no substitute for user knowledge and experience. Until the primary objective is to impart the user with all of the requisite knowledge, nothing will ever change. Any solution that does not involve the user is inherently flawed. One simply cannot create a security soft and exclude the user. The user is part and parcel to the protection, troubleshooting, and other problem resolution.

 

[ForgottenSeer 69673]

I must admit I had never heard the expression full-proof until Eddie said it. I always knew fool proof. I might be older then oldschool, not sure.
Just installed the vista version of Malwarebytes on my sisters computer last week with a ligit paid for key. I have three. Yesterday I noticed I could not open the GUI anylonger. I uninstalled and reinstalled but still same problem. She is 3 years older then me and only know about scams and phishing because of me. She gets those MS calls on her landline. She will click on things in Facebook and get the warning and locked screen. then call me and I have her push the power button and tell her to stop clicking adds in Facebook. Now I am not sure what to put on here handme down laptop. Currently I am only using WD as a antimalware. But as you all know, I also use Appguard, VS and SD, so am good to go. I get those banking phishing things all the time on my phone but I never bank with my phone and never click on them. I stopped using Cylance and Malwarebytes because of boot time. Cylance took for ever on boot using my disk at 100 percent for an extended period of time. I will agree because of my sister that most average users only care about going to Facebook, weather, and mail.

 

[Andy Ful]

...
She will click on things in Facebook and get the warning and locked screen. then call me and I have her push the power button and tell her to stop clicking adds in Facebook. Now I am not sure what to put on here handme down laptop.
...

Shadow Defender or a kind of rollback is very practical on computers of children an old persons. My dad did some things to Desktop and Windows settings, that took me a lot of time to recover.

 

[ForgottenSeer 69673]

Shadow Defender or a kind of rollback is very practical on computers of children an old persons. My dad did some things to Desktop and Windows settings, that took me a lot of time to recover.

Yes but she doesn't want to buy anything. I can mention Shadow defender to her and see what she says. If she wants to buy a USB stick I could put Marcrium free on her computer and make an image. I have given here my old computers over the years but told here she needs but buy a new one. I see they are selling a Chromebook now during black friday for 99 bucks. it is only an 11 inch. She also has a computer I installed Kubuntu on but it became so slow, she stopped using it. I would not call myself an average use. Been doing this for years. I was one of the original users at Wilders. There was less then 1000 users there when I joined, but under a different username. She has a Dell laptop and the two users before here screwed the DEll restore partition arug. I don't use your program because you told me I don't need it with Appguard. Otherwise I would. Back in the day when Lockdown went by a different nick, he helped me a lot with Appguard. And Dan has always been awesome with fixing Voodooshield issues. I have been using Shadow Defender for along time and love it. Only had one problem with it after an insider update and the author sent me a reg fix that has worked every since.

 

[DeepWeb]

The 'average user' terminology is somewhat symbolic, because no one can measure such average. We have to agree to something as a starting point, because otherwise the whole thread will be misguiding, and quickly you will see very emotional and defensive posts.
Do you have some propositions to change it?

First of all I agree with your recommendations on how to configure Windows 10. I wish this is how Windows 10 Home came out of the box.

I just think that the average user is actually under 40, a very active computer user who knows that their computer can get viruses and that they need to install some security. The average user does not call customer support to ask how something works, they will google it and in their attempt to download a tweak or a solution or a registry cleaner or that illegal crack for a 3rd party AV they want they get malware. The average user has tried to configure Windows for security and privacy but with each feature update, their security settings and registry tweaks get wiped and they don't even realize that they have to go back and manually reapply everything again. Microsoft is telling them that their computers are already secure, Windows Defender is enough and that they keep their privacy/security settings and configuration with each update but none of those 3 things is true.

My problem is this forum tends to blame "average" users for not knowing how to configure Windows 10 and AVs. But those things have become more and more complex over the years and no longer provide an explanation, Windows has the crappiest documentation in the universe and many security suites have a UI from 2005. People are aware of security and privacy concerns and those who just feel overwhelmed buy Apple because they cannot be bothered with the dumpster fire that is Windows 10.

 

[plat]

Average users like me keep the Internet and therefore Microsoft alive and flourishing with our data and ignorance. Like Edge browser, I'd like to think that Windows Defender keeps one infection-free until he/she has found and installed the preferred (3rd party) software after a clean installation. Microsoft has a self-serving, vested interest in that regard. Things have changed majorly since the debut of Windows 10. I don't like Microsoft, in fact, the thought of anyone not an employee or shareholder saying "man, I love Microsoft" make me smile. At the end of the day, Windows Defender is "just" an antivirus. Take it or leave it.

 

[oldschool]

I am afraid that you are above the average because of the 7th point, at least. You understand the computer terminology (MT = Malware Tips).
Anyway, your sense of humor is very refreshing.

Indeed! I love the Scots!

 

[erreale]

People are aware of security and privacy concerns and those who just feel overwhelmed buy Apple because they cannot be bothered with the dumpster fire that is Windows 10.

The problem is not the OS, but the user. An acquaintance of mine called me a week ago because with his new Mac he did not know how to format a USB stick ...
Who does not know how to use Windows will not know how to use Mac or Android. Honestly, I do not know anyone who is inept with Windows but is able to use Android optimally, for example.

 

[DeepWeb]

The problem is not the OS, but the user. An acquaintance of mine called me a week ago because with his new Mac he did not know how to format a USB stick ...

How? This is another example that it is not the user's fault. There's no introduction to formatting a USB drive and it's puzzling in macOS because of its crappy UI and puzzling terminology. Instead of calling it formatting, Apple calls it "Erase". Again. Why? This is why people are confused. They will google formatting a USB drive and they can only see "Erase" which can mean anything and Apple provides ZERO documentation in the OS on how to do it. I did find a page on the Apple website on how to erase a volume with no mention that it means formatting. All of this can be avoided with consistent terminology. I am saying this because while Linux has more things that you have to learn, it is easy to quickly find documentation on how to do something.

 

[erreale]

I am saying this because while Linux has more things that you have to learn, it is easy to quickly find documentation on how to do something.

The same users, when they will be on Linux, will call you because they can not make their WiFi printer work ...

 

[ForgottenSeer 72227]

Very interesting discussion

It’s intersting to see that how one person describes/sees an average user is different than another person. I do agree that in my experience most just do basic stuff (ie: email, Facebook, YouTube, Pinterest, etc...). Most of my family members really don’t go looking for trouble on purpose and know enough not to click on ads, open unknown email attachments, etc..., doesn’t mean something can’t happen, but it’s a good start. I feel like there are different levels of average users. Some are more adept than others (ie: can format USB sticks, can do very minor troubleshooting, etc...), but their usage and skills don’t go beyond that. Others require more hand holding and do have a tougher time navigating their way around an OS by comparison. In saying this I believe when it comes to security, it should be tailored to the user specifically. Like it’s already been said for some average users WD maybe ok, others not so much. Heck it may even be simpler to get them to use a chrome book of some sort and or a fairly simple Linux distor as they usually come with everything an average user would require already.

 

[erreale]

What I see/read here is that often we talk about the average user, even if I define it as a Basic user. This type of user (luser) has no intuitive functionality for any type of device.
The luser at the "Press a key to continue" prompt, looks at the keyboard and asks. "Which?"

 

[uduoix]

3rd party protection can be pain in the ass for average users. What is protection is too aggressive and block unnecessary site/program etc? What if is too bugy and break OS or software programs or browsing? How can average users fix that?

 

[Deleted Member 3a5v73x]

3rd party protection can be pain in the ass for average users. What is protection is too aggressive and block unnecessary site/program etc? What if is too bugy and break OS or software programs or browsing? How can average users fix that?

Simple answer is average user simply can't. Every family in this era must have at least one tech savy person who knows more about these digital devices and can help in such situations managing other X/10 family member routers, mobile problems, pc's, etc. The problem I find this way, sacrifices my time, but as long as I can help my family do their work more efficient or solve their problems, I am happy, because in some way or another it all comes back .

 

[noob guy]

Let me throw in my 2 cents to add to the chaos and fun. There are average users who are blissfully ignorant. What they don't know eventually hurts them. Then there are the average users who are paranoid from the start. They join MT, Wilders, COU etc. and don't remain average for long but like to be thought of that way, as they pick the brains of the forum wizards. They study how to code on the side, take courses in pen-testing but end up as black hats. When they finally make a FUD-RAT no AV can detect just for fun, they realize that many who presented themselves to be wise, were really otherwise.

 

[Andy Ful]

First of all I agree with your recommendations on how to configure Windows 10. I wish this is how Windows 10 Home came out of the box.

I just think that the average user is actually under 40, a very active computer user who knows that their computer can get viruses and that they need to install some security. The average user does not call customer support to ask how something works, they will google it and in their attempt to download a tweak or a solution or a registry cleaner or that illegal crack for a 3rd party AV they want they get malware. The average user has tried to configure Windows for security and privacy but with each feature update, their security settings and registry tweaks get wiped and they don't even realize that they have to go back and manually reapply everything again. Microsoft is telling them that their computers are already secure, Windows Defender is enough and that they keep their privacy/security settings and configuration with each update but none of those 3 things is true.

My problem is this forum tends to blame "average" users for not knowing how to configure Windows 10 and AVs. But those things have become more and more complex over the years and no longer provide an explanation, Windows has the crappiest documentation in the universe and many security suites have a UI from 2005. Peoples are aware of security and privacy concerns and those who just feel overwhelmed buy Apple because they cannot be bothered with the dumpster fire that is Windows 10.

Let's say that your definition is for the 'average MT users'. They can use the Internet to seek the basic information, read MT threads occasionally (or similar threads on other forums), tweak the standard Windows & AV settings, have some knowledge about the computers, etc.

Bear in mind, that being the average user has not a pejorative meaning. I know very smart average users. They are simply not interested at all, in computer matters, but have to use the computer for something.

 

[Andy Ful]

Very interesting discussion
...
Heck it may even be simpler to get them to use a chrome book of some sort and or a fairly simple Linux distor as they usually come with everything an average user would require already.

I was always close to the meaning:
average user = the user who would be happy with Chromebook.