Advice Request Emsisoft static detection - is it getting worse?

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Malakke

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This thread was spitted from another discussion.


Containment: Shadow Defender v1.4.0.648
Guest/OS: Windows 10 Home v1607 - build 14393.222
Product: Emsisoft Internet Security @ Default settings v11.10.1.6763
Static (On-demand scan): 0/4
Dynamic (On execution): 3/4
Total: 3/4
SUD: Everything, to be done by @Solarquest after testing EIS 12 BETA.
System Status: infected (running service + dropped files)
1d66c564036651b6f24921ac9213b437.exe is intercepted on run by EIS BB (cloud confirmed), autoquarantined, process terminated. HIT.
Bank Slip.exe sleeps in memory for a minute. It then creates a subprocess of same name, just in that second is intercepted by EIS BB (cloud confirmed), autoquarantined, process terminated. HIT.
BitLocker.exe is able to run in memory for seconds, seconds after it is intercepted by EIS BB (cloud confirmed), autoquarantined, process terminated. HIT.
st1.exe runs in memory without doing anything, it seems as if the malware is aware of either ShadowDefender or the Antivirus software. No EIS action. Source of infection. MISS.

There is still a false positive for ZAM.exe (Zemana Anti Malware, VT 1/57).
HaoZip entry in GetSusp is of no harm, the other 2 are not.


Unless otherwise indicated above, no malicious entries in SysInternals ProcessExplorer, TCPView or AutoRuns.
BB stands for Behavior Blocker.

As previously announced, I will manually close all processes whose malicious payload has been intercepted by EIS, but the AV was not able to remove the source file due to the process still running (restart is not possible using ShadowDefender). I will only do so if I can confirm it is no active malware, doing so by SysInternals AutoRuns, TCPView and Process Explorer, I may emphasize especially the "Suspended" status in Process Explorer regarding that. Reason is to be able to clearly show real infections, not the source malware.

Thank you @Daniel Hidalgo for the pack! System is infected.

Why i have the feeling Emsisoft static detection is worse than before? As Emsisoft user i'm a bit concerned about this
 
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L

LabZero

Signatures and static detection are becoming less and less useful and the problem is not just Emsisoft.
People must be educated first of all, to keep malware away from PC, just use the appropriate security policy.

There is a wrong approach to the concept though. The average user does not want to spend his time looking at each configuration of the system security and how to configure it. The average user just wants to be able to use the PC safely for work or fun.

Surely he could install a behavior blocker or a HIPS that would allow him to completely control his PC. Who is going to teach him to properly respond to all alarms of the HIPS? (we are talking about average Joe).

Although of course I agree with the idea of having to educate users about PC security, it is still true that an antivirus is able to see more in depth than the eyes of a normal user.

The malware is not developed with the idea of doing as much damage as possible to the operating system as before. Now the key word is “money”.

There are those who may think that it is sufficient to work with a limited account to be safe from malware. Approach totally wrong: of course working with limited privileges remarkably helps the users to protect the integrity of his system. But it is not enough to protect from malware.
A malware running with restricted privileges can still steal the information that it wants. If the user is running a browser session, the malware can still inject its code inside the browser, it can still alter the necessary API to intercept the traffic. If a malware is running with limited privileges, it can still intercept the keys pressed and record what the user is writing or infect the USB device when they are connected to the system, strange? Study deeply change your conceptions!

It would be easier to remove? Yes, it's true. The infection would be confined to the user's account and removal would be trivial. The question then becomes: if there isn't an antivirus installed in the system, who notices if there is a malware that is doing this?

You could do it manually. But if the infection includes a rootkit user mode? Yes, they can run in a limited account.

You need to manually run a file to stay infected? Most of the browsers (Firefox and Chrome) are running the plugin using the same privileges as the browser itself. This means that, if an exploit Flash is inserted in a web page apparently secure, a malware can be easily executed on the PC.

The antivirus are not designed to be the ultimate solution to the problem of malware.
A standard approach based on signature is no longer sufficient to avoid the problem malware. But there are other technologies that work together with the most classical signature-based one:

technologies of local heuristic, behavior-based blockers, technologies in-the-cloud. All technologies that help to identify new malware or malware variants that are already known. And they manage to detect many malware.

Antivirus is an important part of a strategy of multi-level security that every user should have to protect his digital identity.
 

Evjl's Rain

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thank you for your valuable comment

However, recently, I have seen quite many "Infected" status from malware hub tests for Emsisoft which is not a good result
With the same tests, even avast with default settings could be "clean" in most of them

I wonder if there is something wrong with emsisoft: the company, the response of the staffs after malwares are submitted, cloud services and behabior blocking strategy?
For their standard, emsisoft (database + their strong behavior blocker) should block almost most of them or at least leave the testing systems as "Clean"
 

Der.Reisende

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Signatures and static detection are becoming less and less useful and the problem is not just Emsisoft.
People must be educated first of all, to keep malware away from PC, just use the appropriate security policy.

There is a wrong approach to the concept though. The average user does not want to spend his time looking at each configuration of the system security and how to configure it. The average user just wants to be able to use the PC safely for work or fun.

Surely he could install a behavior blocker or a HIPS that would allow him to completely control his PC. Who is going to teach him to properly respond to all alarms of the HIPS? (we are talking about average Joe).

Although of course I agree with the idea of having to educate users about PC security, it is still true that an antivirus is able to see more in depth than the eyes of a normal user.

The malware is not developed with the idea of doing as much damage as possible to the operating system as before. Now the key word is “money”.

There are those who may think that it is sufficient to work with a limited account to be safe from malware. Approach totally wrong: of course working with limited privileges remarkably helps the users to protect the integrity of his system. But it is not enough to protect from malware.
A malware running with restricted privileges can still steal the information that it wants. If the user is running a browser session, the malware can still inject its code inside the browser, it can still alter the necessary API to intercept the traffic. If a malware is running with limited privileges, it can still intercept the keys pressed and record what the user is writing or infect the USB device when they are connected to the system, strange? Study deeply change your conceptions!

It would be easier to remove? Yes, it's true. The infection would be confined to the user's account and removal would be trivial. The question then becomes: if there isn't an antivirus installed in the system, who notices if there is a malware that is doing this?

You could do it manually. But if the infection includes a rootkit user mode? Yes, they can run in a limited account.

You need to manually run a file to stay infected? Most of the browsers (Firefox and Chrome) are running the plugin using the same privileges as the browser itself. This means that, if an exploit Flash is inserted in a web page apparently secure, a malware can be easily executed on the PC.

The antivirus are not designed to be the ultimate solution to the problem of malware.
A standard approach based on signature is no longer sufficient to avoid the problem malware. But there are other technologies that work together with the most classical signature-based one:

technologies of local heuristic, behavior-based blockers, technologies in-the-cloud. All technologies that help to identify new malware or malware variants that are already known. And they manage to detect many malware.

Antivirus is an important part of a strategy of multi-level security that every user should have to protect his digital identity.
Thank you @LabZero for picking up the question, just came home from work, had no time to reply. Very detailed description, IMO it's spot on.

@Malakke:

I personally noticed Emsisoft (and Bitdefender) being behind with the time they need to iron out new signatures for threats, however, testing Emsisoft Internet Security 12 from mid of July of this year onto now, I got quite impressed by it's Behaviour Blocker (BB) - especially when it comes to (IMO) biggest threat, Ransomware. Of course, it does not always prevent an infection of the device, however, you need to be aware that the blackhats of nowaday are no amateurs. And, if you don't click wildly on everything you face on the internet, but pay some caution to unknown stuff, I'm not sure whether it's likely you're going to get infected as much as we do performing "Zero-Day" malware* tests in the Malware Vault.
Me rather sacrifice a bit of protection than having some protection software blocking everything and causing problems with everydays use, and legit software.
Also, just as @LabZero already pointed out, Emsisoft is (thanks god) prone to have lot's of BB alerts if something cannot be rated by their cloud. And this even in stock settings!
As you can see in the Malware Vault, we do not rely solely on the Antivirus Product we use, but also have some 2nd opinion scanners as their sidekicks. You do not need to pay for them, most of the time, free versions will serve you well if you can sacrifice their real-time-protection feature. As I would suggest to at least run them on a monthly basis (even if they will not find anything), the free versions are highly recommended as on-demand scanners.

@Evjl's Rain be aware that the "infected" rating will be given at the tiniest indication of an malware infection, this can also be a dropped file might not doing harm while the testing process rated accordingly to the SysInternals tools & 2nd opinion scanners (but might be triggered after restart, which is not possible with ShadowDefender, as it will reset everything to the snapshot before the shadowed session). But I can clearly understand your worries, I hope that Emsisoft Internet Security 12 will come up even stronger.

To sum it up, lessons learned like that is why you should not run unknown files in a live system, but virtualized by a VirtualMachine (VM) or a tool like ShadowDefender (make sure there is no personal data on this PC, also I might suggest using a VPN like CyberGhost Free!) to reduce the risk.

*"Zero Day" Malware: Malware being very young, not detected widely by the signatures of Antivirus Software (see the VirusTotal rating in the thread opener's description).
 
L

Lucent Warrior

However, recently, I have seen quite many "Infected" status from malware hub tests for Emsisoft which is not a good result
With the same tests, even avast with default settings could be "clean" in most of them

I would also like to point out to watch the 'TIME" it was tested. If the user testing Emsisoft is testing and posting directly or shortly after the samples have been posted, they would be fresher and not as high of detection, where as another tester coming in hours later to post their test, will have better results due to the samples now having higher detection. Testing fresh samples is a time sensitive occupation.
 
H

hjlbx

Detection rates of all signature-based security solutions varies over time - sometimes worse, sometimes better.

Lack of detection at the moment of infection is the limitation of using antivirus.

However, with that being said, detection rates for the better antivirus is consistently in the 90+ % for "old" (at least a few weeks old) malware, but dismal for new variants of existing malware and just-released malware (some call them zero-days).

Emsisoft's behavior blocker is meant for those cases where there is no signature detection - so there isn't much to worry about. The behavior blocker seems to fail in less than 1 % or less - and the day-to-day probability that you will get an infection that the behavior blocker does not detect is a very - very - small number.

NOTE: Simple User Space based browser hijacks and that sort of rubbish don't count as infections. Most AV doesn't protect against such things. Even if it is offered as a feature, more often than not the feature is unreliable. Run CCleaner - which will delete the temp files and get rid of the annoyance - and an annoyance is all that it is.

It amazes me that so many AV users state that "Hey, this AV is garbage -- I got a browser hijack" - because they don't know any better.
 
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Malakke

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Thanks everybody for your useful replies. I'm very happy with Emsisoft Internet Security , love its simplicity, privacy care, smoothness, no bloated, BB, POP UP blocking, etc...but always "grass is greener in the other side" :). Anyway, i understand 100% efectiveness is not possible... Now i'm using Emsi + Zemana and i think it's a good combo.

Best regards
 
H

hjlbx

Thanks everybody for your useful replies. I'm very happy with Emsisoft Internet Security , love its simplicity, privacy care, smoothness, no bloated, BB, POP UP blocking, etc...but always "grass is greener in the other side" :). Anyway, i understand 100% efectiveness is not possible... Now i'm using Emsi + Zemana and i think it's a good combo.

Best regards

For a single install security config - you're in pretty good hands with Emsisoft. It is essentially straight-forward once you learn how everything works.
 

adnage19

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Thanks everybody for your useful replies. I'm very happy with Emsisoft Internet Security , love its simplicity, privacy care, smoothness, no bloated, BB, POP UP blocking, etc...but always "grass is greener in the other side" :). Anyway, i understand 100% efectiveness is not possible... Now i'm using Emsi + Zemana and i think it's a good combo.

Best regards
Yes, it is. :) It's true that Emsisoft has bad days in Malware hub, but does it really matter? In normal conditions Emsi give great protection and Zemana is a great support. You are safe.
 

Der.Reisende

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Yes, it is. :) It's true that Emsisoft has bad days in Malware hub, but does it really matter? In normal conditions Emsi give great protection and Zemana is a great support. You are safe.
Fully agree :)

Thanks everybody for your useful replies. I'm very happy with Emsisoft Internet Security , love its simplicity, privacy care, smoothness, no bloated, BB, POP UP blocking, etc...but always "grass is greener in the other side" :). Anyway, i understand 100% efectiveness is not possible... Now i'm using Emsi + Zemana and i think it's a good combo.

Best regards
Glad we could help you :) You pointed out most of the features I like Emsisoft a lot for, too :) Teaming Emsisoft with Zemana Anti-Malware / Anti-Logger is a good move, should work fine!
 

spaceoctopus

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Like @hjlbx pointed out, there are variations from time to time and this happens for all antivirus/malware brands. There is also the time the malware is discovered, and the test is done that also need to be taken in consideration. Although independent tests do not reflect real life situation, it gives you at least an idea how the product performs. And in recent ones, Emsisoft have been doing quite well.

Avtest.org as an example.
https://www.av-test.org/en/antivirus/home-windows/

There is always something to improve. I am sure that version 12 will be even better, especially in the zero day area, which is a must these days, with all forms and kinds of sophisticated Ransomware lurking around .You can accept a little let down on static detection, but not on behavioral and zero-day detections. It is your last line of defense against malwares(even if you have secondary scanners such as Malwarebytes and so on...who could still miss the malware). Behavioral detection is an area where Emsisoft does well. But also, nothing is perfect. :)
 
H

hjlbx

In my experience Emsisoft is one of the best internet security suites. It is a complete package of solid protection, good support, regular build improvement updates, etc.

I used it for long enough that I came to respect Emsisoft - the staff, the company and the product.

@exterminator20 has used it for a long time as well.
 
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jamescv7

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Problems of Antivirus
  • They keep implementing features however how useful and its usability?
  • The product itself can be easily understand even novice/newbie users?
  • The way of detection keeps on being complicated which reduce on being simple enough
  • Nothing wrong to incorporate behavior protection/HIPS but make sure that descriptions are enough to justify.
Unfortunately, static detection should be improve rather delimit it; cause rely too much on execution detection will turn more issues on disinfection due to numerous environmental behavior of OS.

The problem also where Antivirus forgot to implement continuous detection not only on recent threats but also for possible mutated threats before hence bypass all around components.
 

Der.Reisende

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I dont understand what happened to emsisoft anymore. In the recent tests, I hardly see any "clean" system result from malware hub. Why emsisoft products are getting weaker?
I can only guess that some samples become more sophisticated, Emsisoft needs to improve their (IMO yet very good but not perfect) behavior blocker (BB) at stock settings to always reach a clean sheet. Maybe they've already done with v12, we will see soon. There are many things working good in EIS IMO, the Anti-Ransom is one of them.

Please also note that the samples used in the HUB do have low detection by signatures as they are mostly only a few hours old, being perfect to show off HIPS / BB performance.
 
H

hjlbx

I can only guess that some samples become more sophisticated, Emsisoft needs to improve their (IMO yet very good but not perfect) behavior blocker (BB) at stock settings to always reach a clean sheet. Maybe they've already done with v12, we will see soon. There are many things working good in EIS IMO, the Anti-Ransom is one of them.

Please also note that the samples used in the HUB do have low detection by signatures as they are mostly only a few hours old, being perfect to show off HIPS / BB performance.

LOL... upon execution, file will not be whitelisted in Emsisoft Anti-Malware Network, behavior blocker will alerts, select block and quarantine; system is safe.

This is not difficult...

Emsisoft uses Bitdefender signatures - and its own signatures which are primarily for PUPs. The behavior blocker is there so the user does not over-rely upon the signatures - or - when there is no signature.
 

Der.Reisende

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LOL... upon execution, file will not be whitelisted in Emsisoft Anti-Malware Network, behavior blocker will alerts, select block and quarantine; system is safe.

This is not difficult...

Emsisoft uses Bitdefender signatures - and its own signatures which are primarily for PUPs. The behavior blocker is there so the user does not over-rely upon the signatures - or - when there is no signature.
Absolutely true. Bitdefender seems to be not the fastest vendor to add signatures, however it seems Emsisoft is better handling Ransomware than Bitdefender, judging from some of @Solarquest 's test results, however not allowing myself to judge about a product I don't use. Back to BB: Unfortunately there were undetected samples getting trough either completely undetected, not triggering BB (corrupt script not being able to trigger dropped ransomware) or still being able to infect the system by downloading more stuff (using process hijack) although being blocked by BB.
From my experience, EIS first tries to get cloud rating to compare with the BB action it tries to auto-decide. Only if there is no cloud rating and BB detects suspicious changes to the system (!), user gets asked (you might change that for your personal requirements AFAIK, not sitting in front of my PC now, am on mobile).
 
H

hjlbx

Absolutely true. Bitdefender seems to be not the fastest vendor to add signatures, however it seems Emsisoft is better handling Ransomware than Bitdefender, judging from some of @Solarquest 's test results, however not allowing myself to judge about a product I don't use. Back to BB: Unfortunately there were undetected samples getting trough either completely undetected, not triggering BB (corrupt script not being able to trigger dropped ransomware) or still being able to infect the system by downloading more stuff (using process hijack) although being blocked by BB.
From my experience, EIS first tries to get cloud rating to compare with the BB action it tries to auto-decide. Only if there is no cloud rating and BB detects suspicious changes to the system (!), user gets asked (you might change that for your personal requirements AFAIK, not sitting in front of my PC now, am on mobile).

Emsisoft has reported that there are instances where the behavior blocker will not alert upon execution -- but it is rare.

Only ultra-paranoid user is going to worry about it...

And when I used to find these type malwares, I would submit them to the vendor with a bug report -- so that they could look at it and fix it. Emsisoft fixed quite a few things that I submitted back a fews years when version 9 was current.
 

Der.Reisende

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Emsisoft has reported that there are instances where the behavior blocker will not alert upon execution -- but it is rare.

Only ultra-paranoid user is going to worry about it...
I don't worry at all, as I said before, with good browsing habits and not opening everything unknown (or, if really interested in / needed, not without some VT check and at best in a safe environment) you should be quite safe with Emsisoft. You can also try to max out the settings for personal use.

However, I can't let the comments above unanswered as it is also me stating the Emsisoft results in the HUB, which have been "infected" quite some times in the past, see spoilers in the post for in-depth details.
 
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