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Digerati

Level 6
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it is hard to explain something, when people are not listening, but keep repeating the same thing over and over.
Worse is when posters reply to a dormant thread with incorrect information because they didn't bother to read through the thread first.

The problem with dropping the mic is the thread might be left dangling with misinformation presented as the last word. And that does a disservice to future readers. :(

@Panny - sadly, everything you said was wrong :( which you would have realized had you read through this "dormant" thread before dredging it up 2 weeks after the last reply.

As roger_m correctly noted (along with others again and again), Windows automatically defrags the hard drives once a week. Therefore, it is unnecessary for users to manually defrag once a month.

If you load, save and add to files on a regular basis...
:( Adding and saving files frequently or not frequently has very little to do with fragmentation. The amount of free disk space available on the drive is a much more significant factor. After that, it is modifying existing files, not adding and saving. Modifying files is what leave holes in the sectors as the modified file is saved to a new location and the old version is deleted (or rather that space is marked as available).

And, of course, "loading" a file has absolutely nothing to do with fragmentation. It is only when the file is modified that fragmentation might come into play and again that would depend primarily on how much free disk space there is.

So once again, just leave the Windows defaults alone and let Windows manage your drives (HDs and SSDs). W7, W8x and especially W10 know how to do it very well automatically.

If you really "need" frequent defragging, then you, as the user of that computer, have failed to provide adequate disk space and you need to either free up disk space by uninstalling unused programs, moving files to another drive or partition, and/or you need to buy more disk space. The worst thing you can do at this point is to install a 3rd party defragger - yet another program that takes up even more of your precious disk space.
 

ticklemefeet

Level 22
Verified
TRIM is a SSD function. It has nothing to do with hard drives.
Thanks

I just use the regular version of Diskeeper which is suppose to defrag SSD's also. They do make a defragger just for SSD's that uses

" SSDkeeper electrifies Windows system performance further with an additional patented feature - dynamic memory caching. By automatically using idle, available DRAM to serve hot reads, data is served from memory which is 12-15X faster than SSD and further reduces wear to the SSD device. "
Slow PC? Fast, Easy Fix to Speed Up Your Slow PC | Diskeeper

Maybe just advertising hype.
 

Digerati

Level 6
Verified
I just use the regular version of Diskeeper which is suppose to defrag SSD's also.
:( No it doesn't.

Diskkeeper is misinforming you when they claim to "defragment" SSDs. It does not matter if file segments are scattered all over the SSD. That does NOT shorten the life of the SSD. If they really are defragging the files on the SSD, they are performing unnecessary writes to the SSD.

The reason you don't defrag a SSD is because of how data is stored on and retrieved from a SSD. A hard drive is like a drawer in a file cabinet with the pages (file segments) of the report (file) you need scattered (fragmented) in no particular order from front to back. To retrieve all the pages in the right order, you have to stand in front of the file cabinet and rifle through the drawer sequentially, going back and forth, front to back many times (perhaps 100s!) across the entire drawer (platters) to each storage location, picking up the pages in the correct order. This takes a lot of time - especially if page 1 is in the front and page 2 is in the back, page 3 is somewhere near the middle, and so on. And remember, this is a mechanical arm (read: slow) moving back and forth, with friction generating heat and creating wear and tear too.

For a SSD, think of a mail sorting box. You simply stand in front of the box and directly grab each page of the report. It takes the same amount of time and effort to grab every page, regardless where it is located. It does not matter if the pages are next to each other and in the correct order (not fragmented) or if the pages are scattered all over the place. It takes the exact same amount of time to gather up the whole file in the correct order. And this is not a mechanical arm moving a magnetic Read/Write head back and forth. It is done totally through intelligent electronics (read: very fast).

Also, TRIM is a maintenance tool for SSDs that intentionally moves file segments about for "wear leveling" - a feature to ensure even use across the SSD - greatly extending the lifespan of the whole SSD. Actual defragging would simply add pointless wear on a SSD without adding any performance advantages.

I must quickly add the concerns about excess wear decreasing the number of writes a SSD can perform was a problem with first generation SSDs only. Today's generation SSDs still have a limited number, but the numbers are so great, only very busy 24/7/365 industrial data centers need to worry about it. But even many data centers are moving to SSDs.
 

ticklemefeet

Level 22
Verified
Diskeeper used to rock for HDD's.. I remember using that for many years.. Good times.
Yes it not only defrags but deals with IO reads and writes. been using it since Windows 95. One thing that people do not know it their SSD software uses as much RAM instead of reading to the SSD . Back in Windows 95, MS used a cut rate version of Diskeeper for it's defrag. Not sure what they do now. Since I have not migrated to a SDD yet I still use their version 16. They use your RAM for reads instead of the disk. I don't care what anyone says, this is the best defrag software out there for HDD's and SDD's
 
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Kuttz

Level 12
Verified
Indeed, as I did, it is hard to explain something, when people are not listening, but keep repeating the same thing over and over. :giggle:
Agreed HDD is much, much faster than SSDs and CRT is the ultimate display one can ever have and modern day LCDs even OLEDs just sucks (n)People who don't listened to you should be fools forgive them :D
 

Digerati

Level 6
Verified
One thing that people do not know it their SSD software uses as much RAM instead of reading to the SSD .
Please explain what you mean here.

And for the record, no SSD needs "SSD software". If you mean something like Samsung Magician Samsung provides for their SSDs, it is not needed. I never install it. It is not needed. Operating systems know how to communicate with SSDs just fine.

The only time I have used Magician was to run "secure erase" on a client's SSD at their request to make them feel better it contained no company data before they got rid of that computer.

and modern day LCDs even OLEDs just sucks
Not even! But that's for a different thread.
 

ticklemefeet

Level 22
Verified
Sure. I was talking about HDD's with the IO stuff. but since I have never used a SDD with Diskeeper software, I can not say much about it. What I was trying to say, is that according to their web site, their software writes to and read more than anything else to your computer memory rather than to the SSD. I made a quote about that in # 103 post
 

Digerati

Level 6
Verified
I assume you mean this:
SSDkeeper electrifies Windows system performance further with an additional patented feature - dynamic memory caching. By automatically using idle, available DRAM to serve hot reads, data is served from memory which is 12-15X faster than SSD and further reduces wear to the SSD device
Not really buying that. Contrary to what some people (especially 3rd party application marketing weenies) want us to believe, operating systems, including Windows, are excellent at memory management.

If Windows needs to stuff (cache) data into RAM, it does it - all the time! And it does it very efficiently.

What Diskkeeper is doing here is (1) using (hogging?) up some of that RAM Windows and the running programs could be using. And (2), it is using (hogging?) CPU resources that could otherwise be used by Windows or the other running programs.

So Diskkeeper is interjecting itself in the middle. It does not matter how quick and efficient a "man-in-the-middle" is. If Windows already knows how to communicate and utilize RAM efficiently, another program running in the middle is just in the way!
 
Defraging your hard drive depends on how you use your computer. If you load, save and add to files on a regular basis, your system might require more frequent defragging than to those who rarely use their computer. Most people should defrag their hard drives about once a month. Windows users can use the built-in disk defragmenter utility on their computers. The first thing to do is to run a system scan, then follow the tool's device. This will tell you whether or not your hard drive requires defragging. Also, it is recommended that you should not defrag SSD or your Solid State Drive as it can cause unnecessary wear and tear which will reduce its life span.
 

ticklemefeet

Level 22
Verified
I assume you mean this:

Not really buying that. Contrary to what some people (especially 3rd party application marketing weenies) want us to believe, operating systems, including Windows, are excellent at memory management.

If Windows needs to stuff (cache) data into RAM, it does it - all the time! And it does it very efficiently.

What Diskkeeper is doing here is (1) using (hogging?) up some of that RAM Windows and the running programs could be using. And (2), it is using (hogging?) CPU resources that could otherwise be used by Windows or the other running programs.

So Diskkeeper is interjecting itself in the middle. It does not matter how quick and efficient a "man-in-the-middle" is. If Windows already knows how to communicate and utilize RAM efficiently, another program running in the middle is just in the way!
OK I can't speak much about SSDkeeper, I can talk about Diskeeper version 16, which is what I have and it has the same ca+

caching technology as SDDkeeper

Condusiv’s Diskeeper 16 with DRAM caching guarantees to fix worst performing physical servers or PCs with faster than new performance. Instead of “defragging,” Diskeeper 16’s newest patented engine ensures large, clean contiguous writes from Windows so fragmentation is no longer an issue for HDDs or SSDs. This eliminates the “death by a thousand cuts” scenario of small, tiny writes that inflates I/Os per second, robs throughput, and shortens the lifespan of HDDs and SSDs alike. Diskeeper 16 electrifies Windows system performance to operate faster than new with the addition of dynamic memory caching - using idle DRAM to serve hot reads without creating an issue of memory starvation or resource contention.

Here is a screen of it on my system with my HDD.

ScreenHunter_110 Jul. 17 15.21.jpg
 

Question

Level 3
Verified
my recommendation for you
1/ you have windows on SSD -> no need defrag, just trim it when you are bored or every 2 - 4 weeks
2/ use an external defragmenter (auslogics, wise, wincontig, all are portable) and defrag you games and most frequently used program folders only 1 time and never think about them again. When you update them or you feel that they are slow, defrag them. I don't recommend you to defrag the whole HDD because it's not helpful. Just defrag your game and app folders specifically

I don't really like windows defragmenter because it's slow. I prefer wise or auslogics portable because they are extremely fast and effective. Auslogics is more effective than wise. Auslogics might be considered as PUP according to some AVs and second opinion scanners

piriform defraggler is another bad problem. It's sometimes even slower than windows defragmenter and not that effective compared to auslogics

IMO, auslogics is the best in overall, in terms of defragmenting speed and performance gain after the process finishes
Hi! At the Moment i'm using UltraDefrag Portable. Is that enough?
 

Digerati

Level 6
Verified
...guarantees to fix worst performing physical servers or PCs with faster than new performance.
Yeah right! And I have some lovely swamp land in Florida you might be interested in too.

Anything that promises or guarantess "faster than new" or "better than new" performance should be taken as pure marketing hogwash.

As for this:
Instead of “defragging,” Diskeeper 16’s newest patented engine ensures large, clean contiguous writes from Windows so fragmentation is no longer an issue for HDDs or SSDs.
That's more hogwash. FIrst, to achieve enough free space to allow contiguous writes, this can only be obtained if all the free space is consolidated. And that can only happen if all the files are defragged and bunched (typically at the beginning) of the disk. What's that called? Defragging! And second, you don't do that with SSDs. Read the last 6 pages of posts to see why.
Hi! At the Moment i'm using UltraDefrag Portable. Is that enough?
Not needed. Windows defrag is all you need.
 
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ticklemefeet

Level 22
Verified
Yeah right! And I have some lovely swamp land in Florida you might be interested in too.

Anything that promises or guarantess "faster than new" or "better than new" performance should be taken as pure marketing hogwash.

As for this: That's more hogwash. FIrst, to achieve enough free space to allow contiguous writes, this can only be obtained if all the free space is consolidated. And that can only happen if all the files are defragged and bunched (typically at the beginning) of the disk. What's that called? Defragging! And second, you don't do that with SSDs. Read the last 6 pages of posts to see why.
Not needed. Windows defrag is all you need.
All I know is they been around a very long time and MS used a cut-rate version of Diskeeper and maybe still do. That is all I will say about it anymore.

"
History[edit]

Originally, Diskeeper was developed for the VAX series of minicomputers[4] and later for Microsoft Windows. The defragmentation program which is included with Windows 2000, Windows XP and Windows Server 2003 is based on a basic version of Diskeeper.[5]
Features[edit]"
 
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Digerati

Level 6
Verified
All I know is they been around a very long time and MS used a cut-rate version of Diskeeper and maybe still do. That is all I will say about it anymore.
Because a "basic" defragger is all that is needed! If Windows needed a more advanced defragger, Microsoft would include it. Why? Because they have no desire to be bashed and criticized for allowing performance to be degraded when it could so easily be maintained!

Contrary to what you seem to believe, modern versions of Windows are not XP. Microsoft has not be sitting on its thumbs for the last 17 years since XP came out.

Is the 2018 Honda Accord the same car as the 2001 Accord with just a slightly different look?

If Diskkeeper was needed, there would be 100s of millions (including 600+ million Windows 10) users complaining their hard disks were so fragmented, their computers slowed to a crawl. AND the IT press and Windows bashing bloggers would be screaming bloody murder at Microsoft too. But it ain't happening. Why? Because Windows knows how to optimize hard drives and SSDs on its own just fine!

Sorry you refuse to accept that.
 
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Evjl's Rain

Level 43
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Trusted
Content Creator
Malware Hunter
Hi! At the Moment i'm using UltraDefrag Portable. Is that enough?
I think it's okay but the last time I used it (many years ago), the defrag speed was super slow -> I didn't like it

I prefer auslogics or wise because they are much much faster and good enough
thorough defrag will have a short-term gain in performance but after a few days, it will be back to normal -> I prefer fast, simple defragmenters
even windows defrag. is too slow for me
 

roger_m

Level 24
Verified
Content Creator
Most people should defrag their hard drives about once a month. Windows users can use the built-in disk defragmenter utility on their computers. The first thing to do is to run a system scan, then follow the tool's device. This will tell you whether or not your hard drive requires defragging.
If you use the standard Windows defrag and you're using Vista, or a more recent version of Windows, it runs automatically one a week. You don't need to run it manually.
Also, it is recommended that you should not defrag SSD or your Solid State Drive as it can cause unnecessary wear and tear which will reduce its life span.
It won't have any significant impact on the life span, but is not needed due to the way SSDs work.
 
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