Why antivirus programs have become the problem, not the solution

spaceoctopus

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Jul 13, 2014
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Good habits are essential for privacy and protection.So, cracked softwares and key generators are to be avoided at all costs.Invest in and buy original.It will cost you some money.But it will be cheaper compared to the damage that pirated softwares can do.Especially at those times with all kinds of sophisticated malwares are lurking around.
 

Daljeet

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Jun 14, 2017
264
Thanks everyone for your reply. I appreciate i see i use keygen in my system(I forget it). It's not possible to buy every software which i required but i'm trying get genuine software.
 
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ForgottenSeer 19494

Guys and ladies please stop calling any of the things you see today "antivirus" and how they are dead. Symantec just claimed antivirus is dead and we're next-gen and voila, people shocked because of a marketing trick. Basically all of them are real-time antimalware and have more ways to detect/protect than just simple definitions. The on-demand only static definitions matchers were years ago. That doesn't mean that they will detect 100% OP.
 
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_CyberGhosT_

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Aug 2, 2015
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KMS activators & Co., are considered clean by the majority of those who use them, ignoring the alarms of AVs and anti-malware.
The fact is that the original versions of these crack are not infected "as they say", but it would be fundamental to decompile these executables by analyzing the code and used functions to verify the correctness of these statements: personally I'm not so sure they are 100% clean.
Then consider the "non-original" variants of these crack that actually can drop malicious code, but... don't worry: "it is safe, no malware, just a false positive" ... they say.

Stay safe.
I agree 100% with a added word of caution "Don't steal"
 

_CyberGhosT_

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Thanks everyone for your reply. I appreciate i see i use keygen in my system(I forget it). It's not possible to buy every software which i required but i'm trying get genuine software.
With that and a illigitimate OS on your system, you will not be able to utilize MT's Malware Removal section, and many
users will refuse to help or reply to your threads. You can get Windows 10 very cheap or from the insider program for free,
there is no excuse imho for stealing it.
Enjoy your day.
 
F

ForgottenSeer 58943

I work at an MSP with 30,000+ endpoints and servers. Our doctrine has always been, a good layered system with a dash of threat surface reduction is enough to protect virtually anyone not specifically targeted. That means a Layer 7 UTM/NGFW on the gateway, a good endpoint antivirus and ensuring best practice for the AD/Radius/DHCP setup, etc. Good email protection such as Trend HES with aggressive anti-malware and anti-phishing settings.

However 2017 has shown us that this is no longer sufficient. We've seen infection after infection on systems behind what used to be 'enough'. Clearly proving to us that conventional security is becoming much less efficient in these times. UTM/NGFW manufacturers are responding 'slowly' to this because you just can't break networks and desktops for large corporations when deployment of many solutions takes place. It's cost prohibitive for a large organization to lock down their entire infrastructure and resort to whitelisting systems or Default-Deny on HTTP/HTTPS.

In another thread I pointed out that through testing a new product I found my personal home system compromised. Despite an absolutely abusive level of protection on my gateway and lan, Trend Micro Core Processes were hijacked and sending telemetry. Consider the following was in place at the time I got mysteriously compromised;

1) Fortigate 200 L7 UTM (DNS set to Malware Blocking DNS)
2) Untangle (Transparent) behind that with full AV(2 engine) and Web Filtration.
3) Trend Micro Titanium on desktops.
4) Licensed Zemana Anti-logger on desktops w/realtime+pandora.
5) Chrome, uBlock, etc.
6) All patches applied, firmware updated, etc.
7) Reduced threat surface practices. No Java, No Flash, No Office, etc.
8) Good practices throughout.

Yet I was compromised by something that injected into Trend Core Services to re-direct traffic through that service to a datamining site. Since of course, Trend whitelists itself, and Zemana whitelists Trend, nobody was watching the watcher! Morale of the story is, none of this was enough despite my 'safe' practices. Sure, the above setup is absolutely immense against normal junk out there, but when something tough comes through, or someone decides you need to be data mined, none of it really matters.

Mind you, I am aware of how to protect MY endpoint (VDI's, Sandboxes, Whitelisting, etc). My goal was to provide an incredibly safe network for my home going well above and beyond corporate/enterprise best practices. Now in terms of the fairly large MSP I am an engineer at.. Just yesterday I isolated threats on MULTIPLE desktops of a medium size company using almost all of the industry best practice security protocols.

We've clearly entered a new threat dimension... I read an article that came out the other day that said 20-25% of every business/corporation in America is fully compromised without any awareness of their compromises. Some cybersecurity newsletters I get say 75% of every desktop/latop in the country is compromised without awareness of the compromise by the user.

For the record, I've significantly ramped up my home network and endpoints since the 'event' that was well documented here in another thread. Including drastic measures of doing a Win10 reset on all 10 of our Windows boxes and isolating all of them into VDI's and Sandboxes until I can ensure network/gateway integrity. Significant new hardware has been deployed and an internal network scanning appliance added. I'm about ready to pull the systems out of the VDI's and drop off the sandboxing to see how it goes.
 
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ZeroDay

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Aug 17, 2013
1,905
I work at an MSP with 30,000+ endpoints and servers. Our doctrine has always been, a good layered system with a dash of threat surface reduction is enough to protect virtually anyone not specifically targeted. That means a Layer 7 UTM/NGFW on the gateway, a good endpoint antivirus and ensuring best practice for the AD/Radius/DHCP setup, etc. Good email protection such as Trend HES with aggressive anti-malware and anti-phishing settings.

However 2017 has shown us that this is no longer sufficient. We've seen infection after infection on systems behind what used to be 'enough'. Clearly proving to us that conventional security is becoming much less efficient in these times. UTM/NGFW manufacturers are responding 'slowly' to this because you just can't break networks and desktops for large corporations when deployment of many solutions takes place. It's cost prohibitive for a large organization to lock down their entire infrastructure and resort to whitelisting systems or Default-Deny on HTTP/HTTPS.

In another thread I pointed out that through testing a new product I found my personal home system compromised. Despite an absolutely abusive level of protection on my gateway and lan, Trend Micro Core Processes were hijacked and sending telemetry. Consider the following was in place at the time I got mysteriously compromised;

1) Fortigate 200 L7 UTM (DNS set to Malware Blocking DNS)
2) Untangle (Transparent) behind that with full AV(2 engine) and Web Filtration.
3) Trend Micro Titanium on desktops.
4) Licensed Zemana Anti-logger on desktops w/realtime+pandora.
5) Chrome, uBlock, etc.
6) All patches applied, firmware updated, etc.
7) Reduced threat surface practices. No Java, No Flash, No Office, etc.
8) Good practices throughout.

Yet I was compromised by something that injected into Trend Core Services to re-direct traffic through that service to a datamining site. Since of course, Trend whitelists itself, and Zemana whitelists Trend, nobody was watching the watcher! Morale of the story is, none of this was enough despite my 'safe' practices. Sure, the above setup is absolutely immense against normal junk out there, but when something tough comes through, or someone decides you need to be data mined, none of it really matters.

Mind you, I am aware of how to protect MY endpoint (VDI's, Sandboxes, Whitelisting, etc). My goal was to provide an incredibly safe network for my home going well above and beyond corporate/enterprise best practices. Now in terms of the fairly large MSP I am an engineer at.. Just yesterday I isolated threats on MULTIPLE desktops of a medium size company using almost all of the industry best practice security protocols.

We've clearly entered a new threat dimension... I read an article that came out the other day that said 20-25% of every business/corporation in America is fully compromised without any awareness of their compromises. Some cybersecurity newsletters I get say 75% of every desktop/latop in the country is compromised without awareness of the compromise by the user.

For the record, I've significantly ramped up my home network and endpoints since the 'event' that was well documented here in another thread. Including drastic measures of doing a Windows 10 reset on all 10 of our Windows boxes and isolating all of them into VDI's and Sandboxes until I can ensure network/gateway integrity. Significant new hardware has been deployed and an internal network scanning appliance added. I'm about ready to pull the systems out of the VDI's and drop off the sandboxing to see how it goes.
Thanks for sharing that I really enjoyed reading your post. I hope you're feeling fully secure soon.

Edit: Can you link me to your other post/thread that you refer to in the above post please?
 

legendcampos

Level 6
Verified
Aug 22, 2014
286
Windows has evolved, moreover I think it doesn't even need to antivirus only Windows be well configured, SmartScreen activated and a good navigation complement, use good sense that will have no problems.

Old Windows yes, didn't have much protection, there was a lot of floppy exchange, there was no internet and much less antivirus online. Norton, VirusScan already existed... Viruses erased everything, some went into the boot sector, nowadays motherboards already comes with protection of bot.
 

DJ Panda

Level 30
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Top Poster
Well-known
Aug 30, 2015
1,928
I admit I am starting to get a little lazy... Aside from Avast and Smartscreen I have nothing else really protecting me. I am the inexperienced guy that wants usability over security. :p

I don't think AVs have become a problem but they are not the solution either..
 
F

ForgottenSeer 58943

I admit I am starting to get a little lazy... Aside from Avast and Smartscreen I have nothing else really protecting me. I am the inexperienced guy that wants usability over security. :p

That's not inexperience, it's complacency, and we've all subjected ourselves to it over the years. We've become complacent in the believe that you 'put a nice UTM/NGFW on the gateway, drop an AV on, setup good policies/procedures for management/patching' and walk away. That's proving to be not enough any longer. I don't feel too bad about my situation because as we all know, Kaspersky themselves were compromised on their internal endpoints. But it was a game changer for me without a doubt.

In the enterprise/corporate world, usability is key. Anyone around here that's dealt with that knows it.. Break one thing for 5 minutes and you get dozens of people screaming, then the company officers wanting it fixed. Then they argue with you to reduce 'impact' on their workers and virtually ignore security. Try putting a whitelisting product on a corporate network and face the wrath. That all has to change.. A little inconvenience here, a little there, but security should come first.

Pain and suffering motivates people in the corporate world. They've yet to experience enough pain of malware and/or hacking to demand security. They're still focused on the pain of minor security inconveniences as the driving factor in their IT budgets and priorities.
 

Arin

Level 3
Verified
Nov 1, 2014
104
If we use our brain and common sense then antivirus is not a big deal . We are 100% safe with our AV ..
 

Cohen

Level 7
Verified
Well-known
May 22, 2016
328
If we use our brain and common sense then antivirus is not a big deal . We are 100% safe with our AV ..
Do you mean by using common sense we'll be safe? If so, what about things a person cannot [easily] identify such as MITM attacks, drive-by malware and fileless malware?

An antivirus (or other security software such as anti-exes) is like a seat belt; it doesn't matter how good of a driver you are, you should always wear one. Sure, in some cases the seat belt might not be enough, but you're definitely safer with one than without.
 
F

ForgottenSeer 58943

If we use our brain and common sense then antivirus is not a big deal . We are 100% safe with our AV ..

This is absolutely not true. If anything, my situation demonstrated that with strong knowledge of threats and great protection you can still be compromised. Sometimes threats aren't evident, sometimes vectors aren't obvious. Sometimes common sites and programs are compromised. In my case, something injected into Trend Micro's core service file. Brilliant considering Trend isn't scanning itself. Zemana isn't scanning Trend. How did it happen? I run Chrome w/uBlock, and don't download much of anything or surf any risky sites. I have STRONG gateway protection. But yet it happened. Things happen. This is why professional bikers wear helmets.

There is no 100% safe AV. Most are realistically, probably 6%-60% effective. I personally do not believe in synthetic testing. Think about it, an AV that's 'realistically' 60% effective is still letting 400 out of 1000 threats through to you. Those really aren't good odds, which is why I believe in layered protection. But most recently, I've also started pushing toward a default-deny to compliment that and if it gets bad enough - sandboxing and all of the inconveniences that offers.

Shadowserver may shed some more light on it, and may be more accurate than synthetic testing because these numbers are the result of 'stuff' thrown at the scanners from a Honeypot. Nothing more, nothing less.

Shadowserver Foundation - AV - VirusMonthlyStats
 

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