App Review Windows Defender Hardening test vs Malware

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ForgottenSeer 72227

Even though WD did well here Leo couldn't stop himself from making fun of WD. Typical mentality of him. At the start of the video he said, he's been following WD since the beginning and knows how it works. Lol, he still doesn't know very well how it works. WD used less than 40% CPU during this test yet he said the CPU usage was over 50% and also acted like it was bad, too high. While Bitdefender in similar tests, uses over 90% CPU during testing but back then he said it was fine because the higher the CPU usage the faster the threats will be taken care of. After this test he also poked fun saying if you have 24 cores CPU then you may afford to make this changes. Really! Are you kidding me! This is the guy you think knows how WD works! What a d**k! Two faced clown.
Everyone should also remember that Leo works for Emsisoft and making fun of WD is like a part of his job. I've seen Emsisoft employees throwing unnecessary shades on WD on their support forum as well as in Emsisoft Emergency Kit which they only removed after I made a complaint.
This is why I dont like him as a reviewer. Not because he hates in WD, but he is incapable of doing a review without interjecting some sort of bias, or jab towards products he doesn't like. It's very evident that he does NOT know how WD works and the same can be said for other products as well.

TBH as much as I love Emsisidt, I'm actually ashamed of them for even letting this continue. I mean they too weren't all that happy when some youtubers had bad reviews regarding Emsisoft, so why do you let one if your employees get away with this stupidity.

Either he needs to learn how to do reviews objectively without interjecting bias, jabs, etc..., or he just needs to stop. He isnt helping anyone, all he is doing is spreading false information. I'm not here to defend WD, the results are the results, but I don't take kindly to those who are doing this purely for ego purposes and cannot do it in a more unbiased educating fashion. He needs to properly learn how these products work and/or ask questions if he doesn't know.

Rant off.:):emoji_beer:
 

Andy Ful

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It is probable that sometimes an employee of particular AV vendor can make fun of WD (or another AV), but generally I have a good impression of Emsisoft support. People who contacted me were kind and helpful. I read some posts on their forum and they were informative and professional. Of course, I did not read all posts, so there might be exceptions.

Leo's opinion is based on the specific test scenario, and in this scenario, WD usually does not shine (malware run from the local network, sometimes without the Internet connection). I do not think that he knows WD very well and that he is objective about WD, but I have no impression that he wants to bash WD. We should not be angry with Leo if he does not like WD, because WD is defending itself very well by the test results made by AV Labs.
WD (free) is not the strongest possible AV, so some fun is acceptable.:)
 

DDE_Server

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It is probable that sometimes an employee of particular AV vendor can make fun of WD (or another AV), but generally I have a good impression of Emsisoft support. People who contacted me were kind and helpful. I read some posts on their forum and they were informative and professional. Of course, I did not read all posts, so there might be exceptions.

Leo's opinion is based on the specific test scenario, and in this scenario, WD usually does not shine (malware run from the local network, sometimes without the Internet connection). I do not think that he knows WD very well and that he is objective about WD, but I have no impression that he wants to bash WD. We should not be angry with Leo if he does not like WD, because WD is defending itself very well by the test results made by AV Labs.
WD (free) is not the strongest possible AV, so some fun is acceptable.:)
Every product has it is pros and cons make a lot of restrictions on product just to fail isn't reasonable at all. he should simulate real attack which always being done through corporate network. for local network you just need some physical access to introduce the malware which could be rare case.also more Endpoints doesn't depend on windows defender alone.also there are ATP in windows defender for business platform which raise WD protection
 

cybercrucible

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I apologize for not having a ton of time to dive into a deeper discussion, but it might help you to know that tests are helpful to an extent. It is unfortunately a bit simpler to evade a security tool like antivirus with a one-off or targeted distribution of malware, much harder after a wide deployment from an attacker. This is because there is herd protection in place...the endpoint companies are looking for trends, and trying to react accordingly.

I've learned in my career to stand firm on things I know, regardless of whether people say I'm wrong (until they learn I'm right, sometimes years later)...and to admit when I'm out of my specialty...so...
I suspect influenza vaccines are of similar tradecraft, where next year's strains and evolution are monitored, and protections prepared for the people that haven't been exposed yet (cue nCov19 coming out of nowhere causing issues). Again, I am not a virologist.

So, the point is, we can produce a demo that shows us evading even the most well marketed antivirus tools.
Is that realistic? To an extent. If we start attacking people, eventually we'll catch the antivirus vendors' attention, and now be in the same game of manipulating our code just like the malware authors, and monitoring things like Virustotal for hits.

Is it fair? I certainly see "scummy" tactics like a one-off the vendor has never seen to earn some salesperson a sale. Does that mean either tool (competitor or salesperson's tool) is being given a fair assessment? No.

Does it provide an accurate assessment of the tool's capabilities? Sort of. The tools largely use similar datasets, and different capabilities attack the malware tradecraft elements in different ways. If architects were held to the same level of marketing truthfulness as security products, I suspect we'd have a lot of dead people and collapsed buildings. That creates issues for us as product developers. I call it, "Cyber Jesus" sales pitches, and unfortunately they work a lot. Why wouldn't they? The clients don't know any better.
As a customer, if you are going to try to extend your coverage, it might be good to look at installing different products that approach malware from different perspectives. Or just install one that seems to work well for you, and rely on the herd mentality. It really is diminishing returns when installing multiple products of the same genre (antivirus, for example), and you are relying on variables out of your control more than anything, if you are hoping Vendor A catches a pieces of malware that Vendor B temporarily does not catch.

So, how has that affected us in our company, now that I switched to product development, from "just" malware researcher? (I *really* hope someone by now is saying, 'how is this jerk different then?')
Well, what we've done is say, "what is the place we can attack the malware, that requires the most resources for the attackers to pivot around us?"
What we see if that it takes a lot longer for a ransomware tool developer to totally strip out their encryption code and replace with an entirely new library, versus changing filenames. Yes, changing filenames work on a surprisingly large number of products....
I'll cut discussion of what we do in our company short, but hit us up sometime for a longer discussion if you like. You just gotta get in line behind the competitors and criminals trying to ask questions...sigh.

Anyway, I hope that helps provide some context.
 

Andy Ful

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... Endpoints doesn't depend on windows defender alone.also there are ATP in windows defender for business platform which raise WD protection
This is probably his viewpoint ---> Do not use WD alone in businesses or even better use something else.:)
But, when I read the posts on his videos webpages, it is evident that most people even do not understand the testground.:(
 

DDE_Server

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s a customer, if you are going to try to extend your coverage, it might be good to look at installing different products that approach malware from different perspectives. Or just install one that seems to work well for you,
yes i agree. however this may be applicable in home environment. taking in consideration that increasing security software/tools may increase surface attack and stability issues in corporate network which are important factors (also beside the cost) most Enterprises depend only one one or two maximum solutions beside of specific polices deployment using built in OS tools which is tuned by they IT members (adding restriction/updates distribution/software verification from trusted software centers/compliance check,etc)
 

cybercrucible

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Hi @Andy Ful - I've left myself logged in, in case I have to delete some trolls (I get a lot of "screw you" type language on my youtube videos, for example...)
I think we have to reapply as tech partners once CB was bought.
This is the kind of stuff i would be glad to do some more in-depth webinars on, versus more business-oriented.
Here's a cool video of the two playing together (discovery/analysis automation, not ransomware):
 

DDE_Server

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Also the most important solution must has some of IPS/IDS protection which is good factor for preventing network attacks which also is done and deployed on large scale using the Endpoint management console.it is not something easy to put malware in corporate device unless some modules is disabled in web protection/tracking employees to install malicious attachment/or the final method physical access to any machine then distribute through corporate network
 
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ForgottenSeer 72227

It is probable that sometimes an employee of particular AV vendor can make fun of WD (or another AV), but generally I have a good impression of Emsisoft support. People who contacted me were kind and helpful. I read some posts on their forum and they were informative and professional. Of course, I did not read all posts, so there might be exceptions.

Leo's opinion is based on the specific test scenario, and in this scenario, WD usually does not shine (malware run from the local network, sometimes without the Internet connection). I do not think that he knows WD very well and that he is objective about WD, but I have no impression that he wants to bash WD. We should not be angry with Leo if he does not like WD, because WD is defending itself very well by the test results made by AV Labs.
WD (free) is not the strongest possible AV, so some fun is acceptable.:)

Oh don't get me wrong I really like Emsisoft very much. They have probably the best customer service around. I guess the thing that bothers me about it is the fact you don't see other employees from other vendors doing this, atleast from what we can see. I have no issue that he works for Emsisoft, but i feel like he should be disclosing this on every video he relases. Its only ethical, hence why I take issue with Emsisoft in this regard, because they should know better IMO and they should make him disclose this fact.


This is probably his viewpoint ---> Do not use WD alone in businesses or even better use something else.:)
But, when I read the posts on his videos webpages, it is evident that most people even do not understand the testground.:(

The issue for me isnt so much about whether WD scored very well, or very poorly, or any other product for the matter, but more so his inability to be unbiased. Maybe I'm taking it in wrong, but I know I'm not alone in this. Maybe it's because he acts like he knows everything, when infact he really doesnt. It also didn't help when he really doesnt take the time to research how a product works, nor does he take the time to educate his viewers. Its very evident by reading the comments on his videos. Most if those people are basing decisions and forming opinions about this or that, because of his videos. They really aren't very educational, atleast the way we feel like they should be. All of those people will just buy which ever products scores the highest on his tests, which really isnt the best approach. Every product has their pros and cons, some of which goes beyond a bench mark test (ie: performance).
 
F

ForgottenSeer 72227

Also the most important solution must has some of IPS/IDS protection which is good factor for preventing network attacks which also is done and deployed on large scale using the Endpoint management console.it is not something easy to put malware in corporate device unless some modules is disabled in web protection/tracking employees to install malicious attachment/or the final method physical access to any machine then distribute through corporate network

Their quite capable, some products have this built in ie Norton. That being said, as good as IPS/IDS is, they too can be bypassed. They work very similar to signatures in AV, so if a hacker decides to obfuscate their attack, or just simply use https ( assuming they aren't scanning https traffic) it will just blow right through those systems.

is leo work for Emsisoft.
this is new info for me

Yes he works for Emsisoft. He has for a while now unless that's changed. Its the reason why he never tests Emsisoft anymore.
 

DDE_Server

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Their quite capable, some products have this built in ie Norton. That being said, as good as IPS/IDS is, they too can be bypassed. They work very similar to signatures in AV, so if a hacker decides to obfuscate their attack, or just simply use https ( assuming they aren't scanning https traffic) or will just blow right through those systems.
that what i am talking about switch off module to bypass the product defense it is not real scenario. so why IT pros configure them.

will just blow right through those systems.
This one of the cases i talked about "some way of physical access to any of the Enterprises machine"
also there are two types of IPS/IDS the default whitelist/block list which may be used differently depending on cyber security strategy in the corporate
also this is not easy task as this may require highest privilege to modify polices to bypass IDS/IPS protection
 
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fabiobr

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Also the most important solution must has some of IPS/IDS protection which is good factor for preventing network attacks which also is done and deployed on large scale using the Endpoint management console.it is not something easy to put malware in corporate device unless some modules is disabled in web protection/tracking employees to install malicious attachment/or the final method physical access to any machine then distribute through corporate network
Maybe IDS protection is the main reason that Symantec and ESET is one of the main players on endpoint market, top notch firewall/IPS.
 

fabiobr

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Oh don't get me wrong I really like Emsisoft very much. They have probably the best customer service around. I guess the thing that bothers me about it is the fact you don't see other employees from other vendors doing this, atleast from what we can see. I have no issue that he works for Emsisoft, but i feel like he should be disclosing this on every video he relases. Its only ethical, hence why I take issue with Emsisoft in this regard, because they should know better IMO and they should make him disclose this fact.




The issue for me isnt so much about whether WD scored very well, or very poorly, or any other product for the matter, but more so his inability to be unbiased. Maybe I'm taking it in wrong, but I know I'm not alone in this. Maybe it's because he acts like he knows everything, when infact he really doesnt. It also didn't help when he really doesnt take the time to research how a product works, nor does he take the time to educate his viewers. Its very evident by reading the comments on his videos. Most if those people are basing decisions and forming opinions about this or that, because of his videos. They really aren't very educational, atleast the way we feel like they should be. All of those people will just buy which ever products scores the highest on his tests, which really isnt the best approach. Every product has their pros and cons, some of which goes beyond a bench mark test (ie: performance).
He always hated ESET too and is one of the best software in the protection/performance equation. He clearly doesn't know how it works too.
 

DDE_Server

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Maybe IDS protection is the main reason that Symantec and ESET is one of the main players on endpoint market, top notch firewall/IPS.
Generally i think that.Web protection module is the most important line of deference of AV software this is the first line which face malware attacks which generally be phishing attacks/malicious mails/social engineering in corporate / enterprises.
in real scenario all protection modules are active and try to prevent the malware,not it pushed to the machine then it is been discovered.
yes this occur after failure of all web protection then signature/heuristic/behavior detection came after that as second line to prevent the infection)
 
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