Hot Take Bitwarden Design Flaw : Server side iterations

[military]

The Master Password is stored on the server, the Secret Key is stored locally. Got it, thanks. It's worth using both. But Bitwarden only has the Master Password.

 

[Wladimir Palant]

Saw this comment. And wanted to know your opinion.

This comment is somewhat ridiculous. Here is what I replied on Reddit:
Why would they have this mechanism if they never used it? It’s a fairly complicated flow which needs to be thoroughly tested, not something you implement just to keep it around.

1. Underpowered devices that justify using 5,000 iterations do not exist, not in year 2023. I even doubt that they existed a decade ago when Bitwarden was created. There is zero reason to have accounts with less than 100,000 iterations today. And it is questionable whether there is a reason not to migrate everyone to the new default of 350,000 iterations.
2. The UX issues here are solvable. For one, this upgrade should usually happen only after the user logged in with their master password. If they never do because they forgot it, they can be forced to set a new master password. And initially it doesn’t have to be an unconditional change that will log them out at an inconvenient time – they can be offered a one-click upgrade that is strongly recommended.

Informing users is not good enough for security-relevant decisions. Bitwarden has been keeping users on known insecure settings for five years.

Mind you, increasing PBKDF2 iterations forever is certainly not the solution. PBKDF2 is a known bad algorithm, it’s way easier to attack than to defend. That’s why Bitwarden needs to implement something better. And their own 2018 Security Assessment already said that, an advice they chose to ignore. Let’s hope Argon2 support lands soon and existing accounts get upgraded to use it.

 

[LDogg]

No in the Bitwarden web vault itself.

Password Manager Web App | Bitwarden Help Center

Learn how to get started with the Bitwarden password manager web app, including creating your first login, generating a strong password, and creating an organization.

bitwarden.com

View attachment 272359 View attachment 272360

I'll do this when I get back onto my laptop!

~LDogg

You are probably a longtime user of Bitwarden.

The best thing that Bitwarden can do is change the iterations for all users to the their new default of 350,000.

I think Bitwarden should do this as a default for all users on their backend, regardless of it's open source, they need to act on flaws such as this quickly to prevent a LastPass-type breach from occurring, as nothing is 100% secure.

~LDogg

 

[zkSnark]

I think iterations was 50,000 on mine too but I increased it to 2,000,000 last week. And I use master password with 35 characters and Aegis for 2FA.

 

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

I'll do this when I get back onto my laptop!

~LDogg

Be sure to do one thing at the time (iterations and/or password change) you will be logged out after the change and have to login again.

 

[LDogg]

Be sure to do one thing at the time (iterations and/or password change) you will be logged out after the change and have to login again.

Absolutely!

~LDogg

 

[tisko4]

what 2FA method do you prefer? im on research

 

[ForgottenSeer 76546]

Jeremi M Gosney :verified: (@epixoip@infosec.exchange)

@WPalant @dchest@mastodon.social @bitwarden@fosstodon.org I don't typically beat up password managers for PBKDF2, nor for iteration count. I don't like PBKDF2 but it's the only NIST and FIPS approved KDF outside of Balloon, and unlike Balloon it's widely supported. And while I've never given...

infosec.exchange

 

[Andrezj]

Jeremi M Gosney :verified: (@epixoip@infosec.exchange)

@WPalant @dchest@mastodon.social @bitwarden@fosstodon.org I don't typically beat up password managers for PBKDF2, nor for iteration count. I don't like PBKDF2 but it's the only NIST and FIPS approved KDF outside of Balloon, and unlike Balloon it's widely supported. And while I've never given...

infosec.exchange

no matter what you tell people they will not change, they are determined to use browser extension password managers despite all the weaknesses
the assumption is that if a user employs a strong password and increases the iterations that all will fine no matter what, and that just ain't true

 

[Azure]

I see that mine is set to 50,000.
So that means when I created my account, the default was 50,000
View attachment 272361

I checked mine. It was on 50,000 as well.

 

[Evgeny]

what 2FA method do you prefer? im on research

only keys.

 

[LDogg]

My iteration was 100,000 as well when I logged in. Will change at some point.

~LDogg

 

[Azure]

Default iterations are planned to change to 600,000

Bitwarden (@bitwarden@fosstodon.org)

In addition to having a strong master password, default client iterations are being increased to 600,000 as well as double-encrypting these fields at rest with keys managed in Bitwarden’s key vault (in addition to existing encryption). The team is continuing to explore approaches for existing...

fosstodon.org

 

[LDogg]

Default iterations are planned to change to 600,000

Bitwarden (@bitwarden@fosstodon.org)

In addition to having a strong master password, default client iterations are being increased to 600,000 as well as double-encrypting these fields at rest with keys managed in Bitwarden’s key vault (in addition to existing encryption). The team is continuing to explore approaches for existing...

fosstodon.org

I can't quite make out if this is being implemented for existing customers or new ones joining their service. Any updates on this from other avenues, noticed the question was asked in the reply but no answer from the devs.

~LDogg

 

[Wladimir Palant]

I can't quite make out if this is being implemented for existing customers or new ones joining their service. Any updates on this from other avenues, noticed the question was asked in the reply but no answer from the devs.

The answer was: “It will apply to new accounts as it rolls out, the team is exploring the process for existing accounts.”

 

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

I can't quite make out if this is being implemented for existing customers or new ones joining their service. Any updates on this from other avenues, noticed the question was asked in the reply but no answer from the devs.

~LDogg

The team is continuing to explore approaches for existing accounts.

Nothing concrete yet.

 

[LDogg]

Nothing concrete yet.

Okee dokey, keep me updated bro.

~LDogg

The answer was: “It will apply to new accounts as it rolls out, the team is exploring the process for existing accounts.”

Gotcha, thanks.

~LDogg

 

[Lavamate]

Is it safe to just stay with Bitwarden or should i switch to Dashlane/1Password?
BTW i set my KDF Iteration from 100.000 to 700.000, but is that enough at all?

 

[LDogg]

Is it safe to just stay with Bitwarden or should i switch to Dashlane/1Password?
BTW i set my KDF Iteration from 100.000 to 700.000, but is that enough at all?

From an evidence-based point of view yes, just enable 2 Factor Authentication too. You have to think that everything is not 100% secure. To credit BW, they are open source, their code is examined by IT professionals to disclose any vulnerabilities and security weaknesses. So as BW gets more popular the risk of people seeking to attack BW will increase. BW are normally good at closing any holes in their security.

~LDogg

 

[Andrew3000]

Remember that if the vault is stolen, there is no 2FA that can holds. The only thing that protects the vault is the master password.