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Deleted member 178

So we should shift the blame back on people? Should we blame accidents on skid marks on the road too?
What you expect, you use a company's product, the product is theirs, not yours, they do what they want on it, if you don't like something on it, don't use it.
You go in a restaurant, they sell a dish too spicy for you, you don't like it, you inform the chef, if he doesn't change his recipe, i guess you go to another restaurant next time or eat something else, you don't come back, and order the same meal then complain again...

That is simple logic; why in the cyberworld that should be different than in the real world... ?

I will repeat again, NOBODY forces you to use their products.
 

Slyguy

Level 40
What you expect, you use a company's product, the product is theirs, not yours, they do what they want on it, if you don't like something on it, don't use it.
You go in a restaurant, they sell a dish too spicy for you, you don't like it, you inform the chef, if he doesn't change his recipe, i guess you go to another restaurant next time or eat something else, you don't come back, and order the same meal then complain again...

That is simple logic; why in the cyberworld that should be different than in the real world... ?

I will repeat again, NOBODY forces you to use their products.
I'm advocating for DISCLOSURE.. The problem is, products/services either go out of their way to obscure what they do, or are overly vague about it. Consumers are left scratching their heads, and often don't have the knowledge to discover what a product/service is really doing aside from vague or sometimes incorrect privacy policies. With disclosure, a customer can make an informed decision. Without disclosure, everyone is left to wonder, and we can't assume people have the technical knowledge to dissect what every product/service is doing.

Nobody says they MUST use the products. We're saying there should be some universal disclosure, required by law, and the parameters established by privacy experts beyond the extremely generic verbiage of privacy policies often stolen from other vendors.. A 'grading' of privacy of each and every product. Software Companies/Services have become reckless with customer information. To fix it, companies need to be compelled to make disclosures otherwise nobody can make informed decisions.

Since you brought up food.. In many states, Calorie count MUST be put next to the food item. So an informed decision can be made. In the USA ingredients must be disclosed if requested, so informed decisions can be made. To continue the food analogy; I want to know the calories (logging/telemetry/privacy) of EVERY product I use so I can make an informed decision. This should be printed on the menu (download page) of the product perhaps. EULA's and Privacy Policies are vague and generally used more to obscure activity than disclose it.
 
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Deleted member 178

I want to know the calories (logging/telemetry/privacy) of EVERY product I use so I can make an informed decision. This should be printed on the menu (download page) of the product perhaps. EULA's and Privacy Policies are vague and generally used more to obscure activity than disclose it.
That would be good in a perfect world, however there is no such thing... all the points you have made are valid, but as always all those depends on the country you are and its law.
In France for example no way you will have a menu with the calories indicated, only on the product packages you buy at the supermarket.

You have Google, you can almost find everything you want to know, even noobs can find useful infos disclosed by more expert users. If you don't, you can still ask to the product support team.
So all rest on the user hands, if he is lazy to read the EULA or do some researches, then he can't blame the company but only ihimself.
 

DavidLMO

Level 4
Pre-moderated
NSA tracks every single bit of your Net and Phone. ALL of them. Snowden, Assange and Wikileaks have proven that. And FISA goings on shows that the government could give a rat's a** about YOU and your privacy.
 
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Deleted member 178

NSA tracks every single bit of your Net and Phone. ALL of them. Snowden, Assange and Wikileaks have proven that. And FISA goings on shows that the government could give a rat's a** about YOU and your privacy.
Yes, it is so obvious that instead of playing Don Quixote and fighting windmills, better take the matter in our own hands and just use what we like to use, ditch what we don't like.
 

DeepWeb

Level 23
Verified
I'm more worried about private corporations and spies from authoritarian regimes using the same tools than those from free democracies. While the potential for abuse is there for free democracies, the resources are not and the push against surveillance is still strong. As a US resident I see them as another layer of defense, a taxpayer funded firewall if you will and I would very much prefer this over a foreign government wrecking havoc on our network.
 

upnorth

Level 30
Content Creator
Trusted
Verified
Free " democracies " sell those tools to authoritarian regimes/states happy as a champ and with the no worries mate warranty and in my country we have had several of those embarrassing cases.
 
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DavidLMO

Level 4
Pre-moderated

Daviworld

Level 2
Wow very through and well thought out discussion. I deal with this question frequently from my peer's and in my work life, I usually use an analogy like this.

If you have nothing to have, say for instance you leave your door's & window's open, because you have nothing to hide. You don't wear clothes because you don't have nothing to hide, you walk around with all your money exposed because you don't have nothing to hide, etc. In each of these instances you have something you want to keep private but not necessarily hide for malicious reason's.

I believe in transparency, open source, FOSS, GPL/GNU, integrity, sharing, and everything that helped to make the internet the global community it is today.

I am glad their're at least a few organization's left fighting for our right's and I regularly try to stay involved with them.
 
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ticklemefeet

Level 22
Verified
Really? I SAID I have been in since Day 1!

"The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) is an international non-profit digital rights group based in San Francisco, California. The foundation was formed in July, 1990 by John Gilmore, John Perry Barlow and Mitch Kapor to promote Internet civil liberties."

Electronic Frontier Foundation - Wikipedia

I been on the Net since before AlGore realized he invented it and personally know Mitch Kapor. My firm was in his Lotus Affiliate Developer program.
Ok I really don't know where I thought I was reading about them but have mixed them up with citizens against UFO's sorry.
 

spaceoctopus

Level 15
Content Creator
Verified
@Umbra @Slyguy You two guys are super high on caffeine these days :coffee: Cooooooool down people ;). Nevertheless its an interesting topic.
Well, privacy problems are cause mainly because of a unique and single culprit, humans! In the technological world some share too much about themselves, thinking that everything is fine. Those are often in the " I got nothing to hide" category. While some others are more interested into these infos related to privacy. For power, control and $$$ :cool:
Is it possible to control all these infos about yourself and others? I don't think so. We're all into it now. There are so much things that can reveal stuffs about you in your everyday life.
You even need to learn to use some ''I don't care or i don't give a **** " behaviors. Because if you constantly think about people using your infos against you, observing all of your movements, browsing habits and the like, you'll get sick sooner or later.
 

Spawn

Administrator
Staff member
Verified
If you don't want be spied upon, don't use devices/services that collect datas.
This is virtually impossible, but isn't there different types - for example:
  1. Data collection (Bug Reports, Product Improvement & Feedback)
  2. Personalisation & Targeted Ads (Business and Monetisation)
  3. Spying without consent (ie. Terrorists, Criminal Gangs etc.) + Cyber/Stalkers
Now that's privacy.. I had heard that Bullguard did absolutely no telemetry in their 2018 version
Cannot use Bullguard without using Windows 10, that does collect telemetry.
 
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Deleted member 65228

Companies like Google and Facebook have trackers on a huge population of websites out there, I am pretty sure they can track users of websites even if you aren't signed into an account of their service but this could be wrong information. There are still many tracker services out there which can do things like this, or other things... For example, the one I am about to link you to can steal e-mail addresses entered into forms and send it back to the website author, even if the viewer backs out and doesn't submit the form: Auto-qualify your web visitors while they fill your online forms | ManyContacts

That ManyContacts thing is wrong on so many levels. People shouldn't be allowed to steal someone's e-mail like that from the viewer of the website. If they didn't submit the form, it'll have been for a reason. I would happily blacklist any service caught using such marketing analytics services for that purpose.

So even whilst your browsing and minding your own business, prior to signing any contracts to use a website's service, you can still be watched. Literally. You can have your browsing session for that website recorded for auditing back later on. Or form fill-ins stolen even if you didn't decide to pursue with submitting the form. There's services for everything in analytics. Some of them are just stupid IMO.

Sure, it's for a "good" cause and we are told about cookies often with notices which can be used for tracking but... what about all the other analytics techniques which could be invasive?

Not sure about you but if I decide not to pursue submitting a form, I don't want to have the info I was writing in it originally sent off to the company anyway. It should at-least be VERY clear that the info I had started to type will be submitted regardless of if I choose not to submit in the end.
 
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DavidLMO

Level 4
Pre-moderated
Companies like Google and Facebook have trackers on a huge population of websites out there, I am pretty sure they can track users of websites even if you aren't signed into an account of their service but this could be wrong information.
And Microsoft. Now to do many things with M$ or Google, you need an account. For FB & Google ("protecting" youir account. LMFAO) there are certain things that require a phone number. And with the various tracking, analytic & Ad links all 3 have - they are always trying or are to track you. Take a look see at what is in your Ad Blocker.
 
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Deleted member 65228

And Microsoft. Now to do many things with M$ or Google, you need an account. For FB & Google ("protecting" youir account. LMFAO) there are certain things that require a phone number. And with the various tracking, analytic & Ad links all 3 have - they are always trying or are to track you. Take a look see at what is in your Ad Blocker.
That too.

Sure we can expect some privacy invasion... But THIS much? WHEN DO YOU CROSS THE LINE?!

So this is OK?

Company: "Sorry before you can use our services on the account you've had for 2 years, please accept her updated Terms of Service/Privacy Policy!"
Terms of Service/Privacy Policy: **around 10k+ words long**
User: **accepts because it is so long and due to how it is written, they won't understand it properly even if they tried to*

Now the company can:
- Track you on many different websites which has their own technology built-in (e.g. if they own the blog platform or the website owner used a plug-in from them, etc.)
- Store your personal account information on their servers for eternity
- Store any messages or other data related to the account across all other services on their servers for eternity
- Sell the data to make income, even if it isn't "anonymous"
....

It would be more fair if it was a bit more like this.
Company: "Sorry before you can use our services on the account you've had for 2 years, please accept her updated Terms of Service/Privacy Policy!"
Terms of Service/Privacy Policy: **around 10k+ words long**
Terms of Service/Privacy Policy: BULLET POINT, SIMPLE TO READ VERSION SO THE USER CAN SEE EXACTLY WHAT DATA WILL BE TAKEN AND STORED AND FOR HOW LONG FOR

That would at-least be a bit more fair on many people.

Has no one ever seen the Avast Anti-Virus/Internet Security installation UI? They dedicated a whole tab to ensure the user understands the data collection in their products, and also outlined that this data is sold. This allows the novice to know about it at ease without having to fish through some huge contract document, which virtually probably less than 10% of the population will actually read before accepting.
 
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D

Deleted member 65228

which virtually probably less than 10% of the population will actually read before accepting.
It's to do with more than laziness though.

These types of contracts seem to be intentionally long and worded how they are a lot of the time, probably because the vendor knows that the longer and harder to read it is, the less likely someone is going to dig through all of it. Thus helping prevent people from understanding how bad the service really is in terms of rules/privacy and still having a legal escape route to use in court when someone does find out how invasive/out of order the service behaves.

You can blame us for not always reading but also the company should be at blame for not making it super clear to outline important parts in an easily-readable form IMO.

Avast collect data about their users and they even sell it for profit but they are EXTREMELY OPEN and CLEAR about it. They have a whole tab dedicated to it. More companies should follow how Avast outlined it, so users can truly understand what data on them a vendor will have and how it will be used. How it's used is incredibly important, as well as how that data is protected.

Consumers should be entitled to know at-least the following in an extremely clear and easy-to-read way enforced by law:
- What data the service will collect on the user
- Where the data will be transmitted (e.g. kept on local servers after transmission, stored on a cloud network after transmission, sent to third-parties (and list which third-parties))
- How the data will be used (e.g. to improve the service, to make money, etc.)
- If the data will be sold (and who it will be sold to if it will be)
- How the data collected will be able to accomplish the goal of how it will be used
- How the data will be protected (e.g. what if an attacker managed to steal it, is the encryption strong? What type of encryption is being used?)
- When the data will be removed from the servers (if they ever will be?)

There should also be legal enforcement for every single service (at-least in the EU - maybe there already is this though) where a consumer can request to audit all data the service has on them, be told exactly where this data has been and whether it's been sold in the past (and who to) and be able to request removal and have it processed within 30 days.

Since I am on a privacy rant, why not add one more thing? It should be legally enforced for services to notify all customers via at-least e-mail of a security compromise/breach within 24 hours of confirmation of it. Any service which pays a ransom and keeps an attack quiet should have severe consequences as well, not to be able to just get away with it with some marketing and wording of response speech.

This is my personal opinion.
 

DavidLMO

Level 4
Pre-moderated
EULAs in the early days were much better. Now you MUST be a Philadelphia attorney to understand them.
And 10 % readers is far too high. More likely ~ .000000000000000000000000000000000000001 % is my hunch. :eek: Also I wonder how many skip Advanced set up option where they might find they are DLing a ton of Junk? :LOL:
 

DarkLense

Level 1
Slyguy said:

Developers are to blame as well
Umbra said:
If you don't want be spied upon, don't use devices/services that collect data. If you can't, blame yourself. No one forces you to use Google or Facebook or whatever.

I think on both behalf there should be an agreement a clear statement we use this and this, since majority of people understand only basic terms it should be written that way, plain simple English (or other language, pardon me). The companies make a long text about it that no one reads. It is a users choice to use anything including internet itself, the problem is that majority of people don't bother reading. The developers use their talent to make money, if you are say an car mechanic would you stop being one because someone complains? Thats your only means to live a normal life. And perhaps in some cases a passion. And lets not put everyone in the same basket shell we? Being objective is crucial. The major thing is what couple of people said the safety. You cant gauge if someone will abuse the data, but you can do something to keep it safe at least. And I see no wrong in the European decision "the right to be forgotten". There has to be a right for people to make that goes for companies as well. I am sorry but I dont like being tagged for the rest of my short life for something I posted when I had no clue.