So, what would you do if someday those 3rd party vendors decide to drop support for Windows 7?
Death of Windows7?
- Thread starter poirotz
- Start date
- Jan 8, 2013
- 109
Umbra, maybe you must start reading what others say and what the topic is about. You have transformed the post of a guy who says "I intend to stay win Win7 + software and i think i am good" into "Win10 vs Win7, which one is more secure".
In post #4 , you conclude: "
so you basically confirm that you can't use Windows 7 without additional 3rd party security tools. Unlike Windows 10 which requires nothing but itself.
And amusingly , you are the one telling people shouldn't upgrade to Windows 10 because it is fanfare, blablabla... but rather tell them to add half a dozen of security tools to their Windows 7...Really? "
Why, did he say that he will use Win7 without 3rd party security tools? And you say that he is "telling people that shouldn't upgrade to Win10". WHERE? He is saying what he intends to do in his PC! Where did he tell what you claim he told? More likely, you came guns blazing to "castigate" the poor fellow that wants to keep Win7 + 3rd party applications!
Why compare softwares with Win10 default??? Why not? If he was Win10 + WD, would you have come to tell him what you did? Didn't you write, always in post 4>
"so you basically confirm that you can't use Windows 7 without additional 3rd party security tools. Unlike Windows 10 which requires nothing but itself. "
If a Win10 user is fine with running Win10+antivirus, why one couldn't compare it with Win7 + whatever he wants to run? The issue here is to run Win10 or whether one can stay reasonably safe?
Built-in security, is good on PAPER. Shame, that it's the only piece of security, that any malware writer HAS to defeat. If i am a malware writer, i may not care about defeating Vipre for example or ESET, but one thing i know that i will have to defeat, is the OS. In some years, Win7 will be history and you will be still here in the forum praising how secure the only OS, Win10 will be, however, do you think that malware will stop? If i were malware writer, my main concern would be the most common defenses: Win10, Avast, AVG, Kaspersky. You present Win10 as some kind of security miracle, yet vulnerabilites come out by the dozens and what only managed to do, is make malware more sophisticated than before. It's common knowledge, but doesn't hurt repeating. It's like you want to rob from a house. And the house might have various antithief contraptions but the only one you are certain that is present, is "Win10 burglar alarm", which you can practice how to defeat at the leasure of your own house.
There is NOTHING 100% safe. Especially if it's in Windows kernel. Yes, Appcontainer, is a sandbox and as all things Microsoft, it has been and will be compromised (Kaspersky Threats — KLA11318). Anything in Windows kernel will be compromised, if attackers have the necessity to do so, for the simple fact that they have a lot of time to practice if need be and it's imperative to always find a way to infect Windows. While someone will think hard before spending his energies to bypass something like Voodooshield, Sandboxie, etc. Because it's not worth the effort. The patch will always arrive too late for some...
My brother didn't encounter that, because unlike unfirewalled corporate computers, i had taken care of useless processes listening for no reason. I gave him a quiet, simple security setup, that would cover him. And it did. You brought up EB in the discussion, not me and we are not corporations. The OP sure isn't. In the corporation, one unfirewalled PC with filesharing to others, was enough to spread the worm and this will probably happen AGAIN in the future, because such is the nature of worms and Win10 will succumb to a future worm too. It just happened that they found for "free" the NSA tool, that had the means and motive to spend the time to develop it. Ultimately, if NSA wants to get you, there is nothing you can do.
The problem is, you use SRP and AppContainer in Win10? Fine. I don't know SRP in WIn10, but in Win7, i don't like it. Because it's too much work when i want to change something and too many clicks to change policies. So i prefer 3rd party programs and give more flexibility and more quick possibility to revert something. But why can't the OP be safer than most Win10 users, even if he doesn't choose your way and he prefers to use 4 applications and Win7? That's the whole point of the debate, which, i think has derailed from the topic's scope. Even fileless malware, still needs a point of entry and it needs to run code on the machine. One may find ways to block powershell, WSH etc and even AVs are more aware now. So why can't he be happy with Win7 + other software? It's the end result that counts, not the theoretical discussion. Theoretically you may be targeted by NSA's next gen malware and you don't even know it. There is nothing 100% impenetrable. Especially Windows itself!
And pardon me if i have the idea of some anti-Win7 bias, but i can't help wonder. This setup here is "secure"
Basic Security - MrBananaxx's security config 2020
Security config for 2020, not much has changed. I'm trying brave as my main browser for now.
malwaretips.com
Mine is at "risk". @poirotz 's earned a lesson about "you need some many extra programs while Win10 can do all alone". Is his setup less "secure" than the "secure" above? Because he runs Win7? If we go and test both configs against 0 day malware, will the "secure" from MrBanana's setup fare better?
Isn't this the whole issue of the topic? Sure, he wants to run an overkill config. It's his PC...
Windows is always secure... as long as you don't know about the next hole... And then hackers gather up in hacking events and own systems in 20 minutes. "Mysteriously"... They get "divine illumination" when they get there and suddenly in 20 minutes they discover holes that nobody had found before.
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- Jan 8, 2013
- 109
Eventually, won't we all have to pass to Win10? The key word being "eventually". Or like John Maynard Keynes said "in the long run, we will all be dead".
One of the positive sides of Win7: It runs better than ever. Drivers are flawless (driver change logs are full of bugs for Win10 and this gets repeated with every big update they make). Software the same. Because the system is so mature, that there is nothing to fix about it. You lose some, you gain some.
Plus: Win7 looks like the OS from the future, where things aren't flat!
You know, once graphics were 2D, then they evolved into 3D.
- Jan 8, 2013
- 109
Sorry....but what is Windows7?
It's the OS you don't find in the release notes of software bugfixes.
Latest Nvidia drivers (same story every time). Now in the nvidia forums there are also angry people that can't install the CP because they don't read the release notes.
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- Aug 4, 2016
- 1,465
From my point of view a fresh install of 10 & even an update from Win 7 is going to have a much smaller hard drive footprint (after removing windows .old) partially due to some aspects of Windows folder being smaller & also not having years of updates added - I find no advantage in speed or stability running 7 - Again in my opinion 10 is the most stable & trouble free MS OS I have ever used, both on my own & other machines I look after.
I'ts by far the best OS Ms have ever made & I've used every one since 3.0 - If people wish to use 7, XP, 95 or whatever that's their choice, I don't really understand why, but it's a free choice.
I'ts by far the best OS Ms have ever made & I've used every one since 3.0 - If people wish to use 7, XP, 95 or whatever that's their choice, I don't really understand why, but it's a free choice.
I thought Windows7 was a mythIt's the OS you don't find in the release notes of software bugfixes.
View attachment 232571
For me the simple fact that MS will no longer be providing security updates is more then enough reason for me to upgrade to W10. W7 was great during it's time, but IMHO W10 is far superior in many ways. It way more secure outside the box and I just like the look and feel so much more. IMHO I personally feel like this has been the best OS that MS has ever done.
Well you can use all of those, but it's way overkill IMHO. Kaspersky Internet Security does all of that, minus the sandboxing so really all the other stuff is redundant. For me the simple fact that W10 can do a lot of that by itself makes it more the reason to move to W10. Granted that you will have to take the time to enable/tweak some settings to get the same effect, but it's still there none the less.
The fact that you want to run all of those programs does show that you don't feel secure enough. In all honesty, if you want to continue to use W7, have at it, but personally I think you can just use Kaspersky and be done with it. Just because they may work together, doesn't mean there won't be issues/conflicts down the road.
A lot of being malware feel has to do with the simple fact of how one uses their computer and surfs the web. If those people only go to sites like Facebook and they don't install any programs, etc... chances are they will be infection free, no matter if they are using W7 or W10. Like I said above, the simple fact that you have to add a bunch of 3rd party apps to "secure" windows 7 says you don't feel secure enough using it. 3rd party apps are not invincible and adding a ton of them overtop on another doesn't make you "more secure," in fact it can have the opposite effect. Just like the built in stuff within W10, hackers do take their time to bypass and get around 3rd party programs, so I wouldn't just assume that you are more secure using 3rd party programs, compared to what's built into W10. Your overall surfing computer habits usually will dictate that more so then what security setup you are using.
Also, if you have to use "hacked" drivers to make hardware run is yet another reason to upgrade. I personally would never, EVER trust someone making a hacked driver to run newer hardware. First there's no guarantee it will run optimally, second how do you know it's safe? and third, good luck getting support from any vendor if something goes wrong. Like anything, things move forward, not backwards and like software, hardware will stop being supported aswell.
Agreed,
I've being using W10 since it came out and never ran into any issues with either security updates, or big feature updates. A lot of the reported issues has to do with big feature updates rather than security updates. Since I always do full clean installs when these feature updates are released, I have yet you encounter a problem. I know not everyone likes this approach, but it works, and I know I'm not alone in this regard. Most of those issues usually are the result of in-place upgrades rather than doing a clean install. I know not everyone has the skills to do such a thing, so I do wish that MS would do a better job with in-place upgrades, but for me I feel like its an important skill to learn if you like using computers and want to dive into these things.
You're right, it was never the end of malware and it never will be, but I don't think that was the point of W10. At the end of the day, W10 is still much more secure outside the box compared to W7. Like I said above, if you have to add a bunch of 3rd party programs to achieve the same benefit of W10, well then that answers your question. No one ever said that W10 would never be hacked, or malware free, but still doesn't mean that MS hasn't improved on it's overall security. Hacking/malware is always a cat an mouse game, so no matter what there will always be malware and security holes.
The example of your brother being malware free has more to do with is overall computing habits, rather than which OS he's running. He could be running W10 at default and my guess is that he will remain malware free. Especially if he doesn't install any programs himself and only vists a hand full of sites like Facebook, etc... As I said above, your overall habits will usually dictate your overall security, more so than which OS/3rd party program you are running. Don't get me wrong, they help, but if everyone used their computer the way your brother does, I don't think we would see as many infections as we do. That's just my opinion.
Well you can use all of those, but it's way overkill IMHO. Kaspersky Internet Security does all of that, minus the sandboxing so really all the other stuff is redundant. For me the simple fact that W10 can do a lot of that by itself makes it more the reason to move to W10. Granted that you will have to take the time to enable/tweak some settings to get the same effect, but it's still there none the less.
The fact that you want to run all of those programs does show that you don't feel secure enough. In all honesty, if you want to continue to use W7, have at it, but personally I think you can just use Kaspersky and be done with it. Just because they may work together, doesn't mean there won't be issues/conflicts down the road.
A lot of being malware feel has to do with the simple fact of how one uses their computer and surfs the web. If those people only go to sites like Facebook and they don't install any programs, etc... chances are they will be infection free, no matter if they are using W7 or W10. Like I said above, the simple fact that you have to add a bunch of 3rd party apps to "secure" windows 7 says you don't feel secure enough using it. 3rd party apps are not invincible and adding a ton of them overtop on another doesn't make you "more secure," in fact it can have the opposite effect. Just like the built in stuff within W10, hackers do take their time to bypass and get around 3rd party programs, so I wouldn't just assume that you are more secure using 3rd party programs, compared to what's built into W10. Your overall surfing computer habits usually will dictate that more so then what security setup you are using.
Also, if you have to use "hacked" drivers to make hardware run is yet another reason to upgrade. I personally would never, EVER trust someone making a hacked driver to run newer hardware. First there's no guarantee it will run optimally, second how do you know it's safe? and third, good luck getting support from any vendor if something goes wrong. Like anything, things move forward, not backwards and like software, hardware will stop being supported aswell.
Agreed,
I've being using W10 since it came out and never ran into any issues with either security updates, or big feature updates. A lot of the reported issues has to do with big feature updates rather than security updates. Since I always do full clean installs when these feature updates are released, I have yet you encounter a problem. I know not everyone likes this approach, but it works, and I know I'm not alone in this regard. Most of those issues usually are the result of in-place upgrades rather than doing a clean install. I know not everyone has the skills to do such a thing, so I do wish that MS would do a better job with in-place upgrades, but for me I feel like its an important skill to learn if you like using computers and want to dive into these things.
You're right, it was never the end of malware and it never will be, but I don't think that was the point of W10. At the end of the day, W10 is still much more secure outside the box compared to W7. Like I said above, if you have to add a bunch of 3rd party programs to achieve the same benefit of W10, well then that answers your question. No one ever said that W10 would never be hacked, or malware free, but still doesn't mean that MS hasn't improved on it's overall security. Hacking/malware is always a cat an mouse game, so no matter what there will always be malware and security holes.
The example of your brother being malware free has more to do with is overall computing habits, rather than which OS he's running. He could be running W10 at default and my guess is that he will remain malware free. Especially if he doesn't install any programs himself and only vists a hand full of sites like Facebook, etc... As I said above, your overall habits will usually dictate your overall security, more so than which OS/3rd party program you are running. Don't get me wrong, they help, but if everyone used their computer the way your brother does, I don't think we would see as many infections as we do. That's just my opinion.
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- Jan 28, 2018
- 2,464
If you don't want to connect to the web, win7 is perfectly fine.
My concern is that less knowledgeable people will read and believe a post called "It's ok to protect windows7 with third-party software.". I ’ m guessing there are quite a few people out there looking for this kind of useful information, especially right after support was recently discontinued.
I don't say anything about people with knowledge who continue to use wjn7 with confidence and responsibility. However, considering that other users may be affected, I think it should be denied.
Be careful not to be fooled by the tone of your @Umbra post. You need to read the meaning and contents of his speech, not the words.
My concern is that less knowledgeable people will read and believe a post called "It's ok to protect windows7 with third-party software.". I ’ m guessing there are quite a few people out there looking for this kind of useful information, especially right after support was recently discontinued.
I don't say anything about people with knowledge who continue to use wjn7 with confidence and responsibility. However, considering that other users may be affected, I think it should be denied.
Be careful not to be fooled by the tone of your @Umbra post. You need to read the meaning and contents of his speech, not the words.
it is not the fact that he like to use Win7 + Soft, it is the fact he came with "I hear a lot of advice these days about the need of 'upgrading' to Windows10 as a measure of security, but i think all this fanfare is -perhaps- greatly exaggerated. "
Come, on! exaggerated and fanfare to advise Average Joe to upgrade to a safer and maintained OS ! if you agree with that , then you have nothing to do in a security forum. Sorry !
He can but don't say upgrading to a safer OS is "Fanfare and exaggerated" , that was the exact reason i reacted. The rest i don't really care, it even amused me.
You don't even get what is the purpose of the config section and what tags means.
Like many, who get their little feelings hurt because their "thought-to-be-awesome" setup is tagged as risky. Let me laugh...
The section and the tag are not meant to satisfy their little ego, they are meant to inform AVERAGE JOE (because MT is for Average Joe) what kind of setup are safe to use in case they want some inspiration to secure their own.
It has nothing to do with the user's skill on how he can handle his own unsafe system. Risky item = Risky tag.
Got it now?
You keep saying that, "there will be always vulnerabilities" OF COURSE ! you are wearing your keyboard, we all know that (or maybe you believe we are poor idiots thinking than Windows is invincible?)
What you said is true for every OS and software in this world. Stating the obvious again...
- Jan 8, 2013
- 109
About this since i didn't cover it before. Fear not, there are other forums in the internet with very skilled people that don't run just anything and the "hack" consists in an edit in the deviceID, which makes Windows think (accept) that it's installing the USB driver of Ryzen 2000, while it's Ryzen 3000. The driver works just fine, it's just MS that pressed AMD not to issue the driver itself.
He even put "perhaps" in there, which is more than most can say. It's called an opinion, about his own self and configuration no less. Again, you are talking to yourself. WHO the hell is the average Joe that h e advised? He opened the topic himself to show his new config? Who is this Average Joe? Judging by the levels, it must be me. Or are the average Joes expecting to decided what to do by reading what some Joe Doe in a forum will say about himself? I just put "Death of Windows 7?" in google. I have the choice of reading "Techradar", "betanews", "PCWorld", "The Register", "Tom's Hardware", just to mention the first page, but the Average Joe instead will come to follow @poirotz in this specific thread? Please... Or are the "Average Joes" those in the help section that disappear with 5 posts, but now they will all pour in to learn from @poirotz ? Why don't the forum gurus make a sticky instead "Forum Reccomendation For Win7 EOL" and let the "Win7 plebeans" a corner to have a discussion too?
He did add perhaps at least! How often do you see that in a forum?
Every forum has its quirks, i don't follow this one closely to have understood every rule. I just try to find some common logic in all this. At the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding, because everyone has an opinion. What you have keeps you clean? It works.
I got it and will wrap up what one can read in this forum:
- If you have very little security with Win7, you are foolhardy, which means you should go to Win10.
- If you have a medium number of programs, you are at risk, which will go away with Win10, even with just out of the box security.
- If you have overkill, it means you are not confident enough, which means you should go to Win10.
And if you say otherwise, you will be castigated because some lurking "average Joe", might follow your bad example and be doomed.
Well, yes, it all makes sense now. Thank God, i have still the "Win7 clandestine forum" with the "hacked" drivers, where Win7 users can still say whatever they please. I will make a proposal to call it "Win7 Underground" now that Win7 isn't safe anymore.
Every software in the world, isn't the preferred target of every aspiring malware writer. We both know that.
- Jan 8, 2013
- 109
If you don't want to connect to the web, Windows 7 is perfectly fine.
My concern is that less knowledgeable people will read and believe a post called "It's ok to protect windows7 with third-party software.". I ’ m guessing there are quite a few people out there looking for this kind of useful information, especially right after support was recently discontinued.
I don't say anything about people with knowledge who continue to use wjn7 with confidence and responsibility. However, considering that other users may be affected, I think it should be denied.
Be careful not to be fooled by the tone of your @Umbra post. You need to read the meaning and contents of his speech, not the words.
What i don't understand is this. Ok, i am not connecting to the web right now, but what bugs me is: This is a security forum, with a malware hub no less. In all other sectors, people make comparisons. How come nobody, instead of stating his opinions or ad hominem arguments (Ad hominem - Wikipedia), while at the same time asks not to mind the words of the speech, didn't ask to do, for the sake of the AVERAGE JOE (!!!) , who can't upgrade to Win10 for one or the other reason , a test, and recommend, IF POSSIBLE, IF IT EXISTS, some configuration, that is let's say roughly on par with Win10 + WD, which is what the "average Joe" would use with Win10 out of the box, so that the poor Win7 user that has unsupported hardware or no Win10 license or no will, can stay reasonably safe?
You don't want that? Make a big sticky with capital letters "ADVICE TO AVERAGE JOE NOW THAT WIN7 IS EOL".
Instead you have this happening...
Oh well...
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- Nov 15, 2018
- 36
@Fuzzfas
i am relieved at least one person got the gist of what i wanted to infer.
Best of luck to you among IT people wich didnt study logic at the University.
Other people over here either watched or lived too many
BRONX movies and try to transfer their lack of basic education into their posts.
Sometimes it's not a problem of concussion,but simply economical.
Sometimes fanboys become trolls.
I've done maybe a thousand posts in the last 20 years in the best forums in the world regarding security,both in the USA and
the UK,about complicated or unpopular topics since Windows95, but this is the first time i am dragged down to the level
of angry beasts talking.
Considering there's no point in having to reply to insidious idiocies everyday-got no time for it-and considering if we go on
like this i'd be surely banned for having ideas not in line with the herdleaders or for giving titles to persons, I decided to
quit right now with the forum.
So i beg the chief moderator to take steps to remove me from now on from the forum ranks.
I will remove my profile and deactivate.
Best of luck to the forum for the future.
i am relieved at least one person got the gist of what i wanted to infer.
Best of luck to you among IT people wich didnt study logic at the University.
Other people over here either watched or lived too many
BRONX movies and try to transfer their lack of basic education into their posts.
Sometimes it's not a problem of concussion,but simply economical.
Sometimes fanboys become trolls.
I've done maybe a thousand posts in the last 20 years in the best forums in the world regarding security,both in the USA and
the UK,about complicated or unpopular topics since Windows95, but this is the first time i am dragged down to the level
of angry beasts talking.
Considering there's no point in having to reply to insidious idiocies everyday-got no time for it-and considering if we go on
like this i'd be surely banned for having ideas not in line with the herdleaders or for giving titles to persons, I decided to
quit right now with the forum.
So i beg the chief moderator to take steps to remove me from now on from the forum ranks.
I will remove my profile and deactivate.
Best of luck to the forum for the future.
- Jan 8, 2013
- 109
When it comes down to OS and even more so, to OS+security, there's a lot of projection going on (i don't exclude myself either). To make an example, i was around, when the Vista users, where fighting with XP users that didn't wish to pass to Vista (in non security related forum). There was even a famous "Windows guru" journalist that at the time wrote accolade article about Vista's future success.
It's the nature of the beast... I understand your reasoning, but at the same time i am sorry, because your decision is very drastic. Personally i will just avoid further discussion about it too and concentrate on other threads and why not, my more "Win7 friendly" forum. I came after much time because i was interested in a specific software, of which i actually got a license too now, it's healthy to write a bit in english too, i have no wish to mislead the lurker Average Joe either and we can all be happy... I will concentrate on more "neutral" zones of the forum. Maybe you could do the same?
As usual, when people get short of arguments, they start insulting. Ludicrous...
- May 16, 2018
- 1,363
This is why Dr. @oldschool is here. I have created my Psyko-Emotional Scanner for diagnosing Security Forum Paranoia Syndrome, Security Application Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, Privacy Invasion Panic Perversion and other info-tech related maladies - which are epidemic on many forums like MT.
Doc Oldschool,
Thank goodness you're here doctor!
This thread has spiraled out of control.
There is more emotion in this thread.... than threads about AV tests when peoples pet AVs didn't do well.... than threads about whether Windows Defender is good or not.... than threads about the relative sucktitude of the Green Kool-Aid...
...don't just stand there, operate .. -Eminem
- May 16, 2018
- 1,363
The comparisons and analogies of show-Zi... and the way she phases things is SO cute. And on-target too.
Thank you show-Zi for your words of wisdom.
Be careful not to be fooled by the tone of your @Umbra post. You need to read the meaning and contents of his speech, not the words.
Yeah, exactly. Umbra can be brusque... but it's harmless. He's generally correct and often helpful. A good resource for us here at MT.
- Mar 29, 2018
- 7,704
Thank you show-Zi for your words of wisdom.
[/QUOTE]
Ditto.
Cylance!
The doctor can only help those who realize their plight and request help*.
* = Additional software purchase required. PM me for details.
[/QUOTE]
Ditto.
Cylance!
The doctor can only help those who realize their plight and request help*.
* = Additional software purchase required.
PM me for details.
- Jan 11, 2020
- 220
It doesn't sound to me like you've been insulted. He merely responded to your arrogant and know-it-all tones, in your speeches.
That's fair, but I would personally still upgrade. That's just my approach, but even for average users I would recommend the same.
Personally I think it would be best practice for average users to keep up with the changes, which includes updating the OS to the latest version. They will continue to get security updates along with overall security improvements that will never be present in previous versions of the OS.
As to the forums I agree with @Umbra. The thing you have to remember is that a lot of people join and or just read the forum looking for advice. Many of these people may not have the skills and knowledge to deal with some of these things, so we have to be mindful of what we recommens. Those people can get into a whole lot of trouble if they believe they can do this or that, or even run a certain computer setup and be fine. One can still use W7 if they so choose, but there are other considerations that have to be taken when talking about securing these systems. Same can be said for those wanting to use XP.
With the W7 forum you are referring to, while I'm sure it's a great community, I honestly think that you as a community should also be mindful and constantly state the pros and cons of doing these things, as you cannot assume that average users aren't reading the forum. A simple google search can bring you there and I'm assuming like many forums, you can read the content without joining.
I'm not saying you shouldn't run W7 or do those things, have at it, but realize it's far from best practice and really should be approached with caution.
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